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Re: Abhidhamma Series, no 24. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1).

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  • thomaslaw03
    Dear Nina, I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me. I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 14, 2010
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      Dear Nina,

      I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me.

      I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka, and their Pali commentaries? If this term does not actually exist or present in those collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

      In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt., is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings).

      The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).

      However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition, but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure) of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.

      Hope you can understand my questions. Any advice?

      Sincerely,

      Thomas Law

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Thomas,
      > Op 11-aug-2010, om 4:19 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not
      > > actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka,
      > > and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali
      > > tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta
      > > Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?
      > ------
      > N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand
      > your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
      > Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Suttanta Maatrix may be regarded as a kind of
      > appendix. I do not know more about it, but just render what I found.
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Thomas, ... N: I just open my Dhammasa ngani text and it says: Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma. B. Suttanta. ... In the translation of U Kyaw Khine: Suttantika
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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        Dear Thomas,
        Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

        > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
        > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
        > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
        > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
        > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
        ------
        N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
        Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
        B. Suttanta.
        -------
        In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
        I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
        -------
        > Th:
        > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
        > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
        > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
        > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
        > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
        >
        > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
        > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
        > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
        > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
        > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
        > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
        > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
        >
        > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
        > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
        > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
        > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
        > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
        > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
        -------
        N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
        the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
        many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
        to the suttas, uses the same similes.
        -----
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomaslaw03
        Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind reply. ... So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared only in the Dhammasa ngani text? And the subject headings
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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          Dear Nina,

          Thank you very much for your kind reply.

          "N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
          > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
          > B. Suttanta.
          > -------
          > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
          > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything."

          So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the Dhammasa"ngani text?

          And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?

          Are these correct?

          Sincerely,

          Thomas Law

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Thomas,
          > Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
          > > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
          > > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
          > > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
          > > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
          > ------
          > N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
          > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
          > B. Suttanta.
          > -------
          > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
          > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
          > -------
          > > Th:
          > > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
          > > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
          > > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
          > > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
          > > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
          > >
          > > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
          > > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
          > > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
          > > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
          > > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
          > > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
          > > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
          > >
          > > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
          > > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
          > > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
          > > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
          > > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
          > > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
          > -------
          > N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
          > the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
          > many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
          > to the suttas, uses the same similes.
          > -----
          > Nina.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Thomas, ... N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere. ... N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be traced back to the Sutta Pi.taka,
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 16, 2010
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            Dear Thomas,
            Op 16-aug-2010, om 3:57 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

            > So, the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the
            > Dhammasa"ngani text?
            -----
            N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere.
            ------
            >
            > Th: And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to
            > your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the
            > Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?
            ------
            N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be 'traced
            back to the Sutta Pi.taka, chiefly to the Sangiiti sutta or the
            Anguttara Nijaaya...' according to Ven. Nyanatiloka.
            -----
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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