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Re: Abhidhamma Series, no 24. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1).

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  • thomaslaw03
    Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 10, 2010
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      Dear Nina,

      Thanks for your reply.

      Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka, and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?

      Regards,

      Thomas Law

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Thomas,
      > Op 9-aug-2010, om 3:05 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > Do you mean that the term, Maatikaa, `does not actually presented'
      > > in the other six Abhidhamma books, but only in meaning, Maatikaa
      > > ("a table of contents, or matrix") can be served as an introduction
      > > to the other books?
      > > It seems to me Maatikaa means simply the fundamental topics/subject
      > > headings (of the Buddha teachings).
      > -------
      > N: Yes, they comprise fundamental topics. This matrix precedes in the
      > text the first book, but it is basic for the whole of the Abhidhamma.
      > --------
      > >
      > > Th: You also mention Suttanta matrix ("After the Abhidhamma matrix
      > > there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
      > > sutta terms."). Could you give some details of the Suttanta matrix?
      > -------
      > N: Ven. Nyanatiloka in his 'Guide to the Abhidhamma Pi.taka' states
      > that practically all the terms can be traced to the Sutta Pi.taka,
      > chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya. He states: 'Also
      > most of the terms of the Abhidhamma Matrix itself can be traced back
      > to the Suttas, or are derived from Sutta terms and teachings: an
      > illustration of the close inner connection between the teachings of
      > the two Pi.takas.'
      > Some details: <States that partake of wisdom; do not partake of wisdom.
      > States that resemble lightning; are comparable to the
      > thunderbolt....Naama and ruupa. Ignorance and craving for rebirth...>
      > The 'Atthasaalinii' elaborates on all of these terms.
      > -------
      > >
      > > Th: Investigating the differences and similarities of the
      > > Abhidhamma matrix and Suttanta matrix may help us to understand
      > > more in history on the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism.
      > -----
      > N: The subject of history has been often discussed and a great deal
      > has been written about it already. There are different opinions. I am
      > interested in the contents of the Abhidhamma. To what extent can one
      > verify what has been taught, in how far does it help in the
      > development of insight.
      >
      > For those who are interested in history this link may be useful:
      > The Historical Background of the Abhidhamma Studies in Myanmar
      > http://atbu.org/node/12
      >
      > --------
      > Nina
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Thomas, ... N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 14, 2010
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        Dear Thomas,
        Op 11-aug-2010, om 4:19 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

        > Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not
        > actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka,
        > and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali
        > tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta
        > Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?
        ------
        N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand
        your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
        Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Suttanta Maatrix may be regarded as a kind of
        appendix. I do not know more about it, but just render what I found.
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomaslaw03
        Dear Nina, I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me. I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 14, 2010
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          Dear Nina,

          I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me.

          I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka, and their Pali commentaries? If this term does not actually exist or present in those collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

          In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt., is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings).

          The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).

          However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition, but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure) of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.

          Hope you can understand my questions. Any advice?

          Sincerely,

          Thomas Law

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Thomas,
          > Op 11-aug-2010, om 4:19 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not
          > > actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka,
          > > and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali
          > > tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta
          > > Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?
          > ------
          > N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand
          > your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
          > Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Suttanta Maatrix may be regarded as a kind of
          > appendix. I do not know more about it, but just render what I found.
          > Nina.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Thomas, ... N: I just open my Dhammasa ngani text and it says: Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma. B. Suttanta. ... In the translation of U Kyaw Khine: Suttantika
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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            Dear Thomas,
            Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

            > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
            > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
            > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
            > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
            > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
            ------
            N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
            Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
            B. Suttanta.
            -------
            In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
            I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
            -------
            > Th:
            > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
            > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
            > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
            > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
            > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
            >
            > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
            > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
            > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
            > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
            > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
            > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
            > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
            >
            > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
            > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
            > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
            > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
            > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
            > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
            -------
            N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
            the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
            many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
            to the suttas, uses the same similes.
            -----
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • thomaslaw03
            Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind reply. ... So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared only in the Dhammasa ngani text? And the subject headings
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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              Dear Nina,

              Thank you very much for your kind reply.

              "N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
              > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
              > B. Suttanta.
              > -------
              > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
              > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything."

              So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the Dhammasa"ngani text?

              And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?

              Are these correct?

              Sincerely,

              Thomas Law

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Thomas,
              > Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
              >
              > > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
              > > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
              > > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
              > > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
              > > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
              > ------
              > N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
              > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
              > B. Suttanta.
              > -------
              > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
              > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
              > -------
              > > Th:
              > > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
              > > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
              > > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
              > > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
              > > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
              > >
              > > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
              > > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
              > > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
              > > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
              > > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
              > > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
              > > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
              > >
              > > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
              > > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
              > > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
              > > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
              > > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
              > > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
              > -------
              > N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
              > the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
              > many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
              > to the suttas, uses the same similes.
              > -----
              > Nina.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Thomas, ... N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere. ... N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be traced back to the Sutta Pi.taka,
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 16, 2010
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                Dear Thomas,
                Op 16-aug-2010, om 3:57 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

                > So, the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the
                > Dhammasa"ngani text?
                -----
                N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere.
                ------
                >
                > Th: And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to
                > your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the
                > Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?
                ------
                N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be 'traced
                back to the Sutta Pi.taka, chiefly to the Sangiiti sutta or the
                Anguttara Nijaaya...' according to Ven. Nyanatiloka.
                -----
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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