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Abhidhamma Series, no 24. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1).

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear friends, The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1). The Abhidhamma consists of the following seven books: 1.Dhammasanga.nii (translated as Buddhist
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 3, 2010
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      Dear friends,

      The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1).

      The Abhidhamma consists of the following seven books:

      1.Dhammasanga.nii (translated as 'Buddhist Psychological Ethics',
      P.T.S. and also
      translated by U Kyaw, Myanmar.)
      2.Vibha�nga (translated as 'Book of Analysis', P.T.S.)
      3.Dhaatukathaa (Translated as 'Discourse on Elements', P.T.S.)
      4. Puggalapa~n~natti (Translated as 'A Designation of Human Types',
      P.T.S.)
      5.Kathaavatthu (Translated as 'Points of Controversy', P.T.S.)
      6.Yamaka (the Book of Pairs, not translated into English)
      7.Pa.t.thaana (Translated in part as 'Conditional Relations', P.T.S. )
      ------
      A summary of the contents of these seven books has been given by
      Ven. Nyanatiloka in his �Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka� (BPS
      Kandy, 1971) and also by U Kyaw Khine in the introduction to his
      translation of the Dhammasa�nganii. Therefore, I will render only
      some salient features of each book with the purpose to show that the
      classifications found in the Abhidhamma are not mere lists to be read
      and memorized. They all point to the investigation of the realities
      of our daily life. In this way the pa~n~naa is developed that sees
      realities as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. This kind
      of pa~n~naa leads to the eradication of defilements.

      The commentary to the Dhammasa�nganii, the first book, is the
      �Atthasaalinii�, edited by the venerable Buddhaghosa and translated
      as �Expositor�,
      The Dhammasa�nganii, begins, after the Matika, with a description of
      mahaa-kusala citta (kusala citta of the sense sphere) accompanied by
      pa~n~naa. It enumerates all the sobhana cetasikas assisting this
      citta while they accompany it just for a moment. It refers to mahaa-
      kusala citta experiencing an object, be it visible object, sound,
      odour, flavour, tangible object or dhamma object. This points to
      daily life. Time and again citta experiences an object through one of
      the six doors.
      The Dhammasa�nganii states with regard to the first type of mahaa-
      kusala citta of the sense sphere:<At a time (yasmi.m samaye) when
      mahaa-kusala citta of the sense sphere accompanied by joy and
      associated with understanding has arisen...> and then sums up the
      accompanying cetasikas. The �Expositor� (p. 76) explains the word
      samaya as time, occasion, concurrence of conditions, the mutual
      contribution towards the production of a common result: <By this word
      showing thus the condition, the conceit of one who believes that
      states unconditionally follow one�s own will is subdued.>
      We cling to the idea of our own will that can direct dhammas, but
      this is not according to reality. Will or volition, be it wholesome,
      unwholesome or indeterminate, is only a conditioned element.
      The mahaa-kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasikas that always
      accompany citta, the �universals�, such as contact, feeling or
      remembrance, sa~n~naa, as well as by the �particulars�, pakinnakas,
      cetasikas that accompany many cittas but not all. Then follows a list
      of all the sobhana cetasikas necessary for the arising of even one
      moment of kusala citta of the sense sphere.
      For example, the cetasika confidence or faith, saddhaa, always has to
      accompany kusala citta. If there is no confidence in kusala, kusala
      citta could not arise. There have to be non-attachment and non-
      aversion. When we perform daana or observe siila we are not selfish,
      we are not thinking of our own pleasure and comfort. There is calm
      with each kusala citta, at such a moment there is no agitation. There
      has to be sati which is non-forgetful of kusala. Sobhana cetasikas
      are necessary so that mahaa-kusala citta with pa��aa can arise just
      for one extremely brief moment and perform its function, and then
      citta and cetasikas fall away together. The cetasikas condition the
      citta by way of conascence-condition and by several other conditions.
      Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there
      is no one who can direct its arising. It arises when the right
      conditions are present and then it falls away immediately, nobody can
      cause it to last. All the sobhana cetasikas that fall away are
      accumulated from moment to moment so that there are conditions for
      the arising again of kusala citta.
      We shall see that several cetasikas are listed more than once
      under different aspects, such as understanding as faculty, or as
      power. The list ends with: sampaja��a (sati and pa��a), samatha,
      vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is the faculty of energy),
      avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word for ekaggata
      cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration).
      Thus we see that these lists are not a mere summing up, but that
      they point to the development of right understanding of realities.

      *******
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • thomaslaw03
      Dear Nina (and friends), Regarding matika you mentioned below, could you explain what is matika ? Can this term also be used/presented in other Abhidhamma
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 3, 2010
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        Dear Nina (and friends),

        Regarding matika you mentioned below, could you explain what is "matika"? Can this term also be used/presented in other Abhidhamma texts? Thank you.

        Sincerely,

        Thomas Law

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 1).
        >
        > The Abhidhamma consists of the following seven books:
        >
        > 1.Dhammasanga.nii (translated as 'Buddhist Psychological Ethics',
        > P.T.S. and also
        > translated by U Kyaw, Myanmar.)
        > 2.Vibha"nga (translated as 'Book of Analysis', P.T.S.)
        > 3.Dhaatukathaa (Translated as 'Discourse on Elements', P.T.S.)
        > 4. Puggalapa~n~natti (Translated as 'A Designation of Human Types',
        > P.T.S.)
        > 5.Kathaavatthu (Translated as 'Points of Controversy', P.T.S.)
        > 6.Yamaka (the Book of Pairs, not translated into English)
        > 7.Pa.t.thaana (Translated in part as 'Conditional Relations', P.T.S. )
        > ------
        > A summary of the contents of these seven books has been given by
        > Ven. Nyanatiloka in his `Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka' (BPS
        > Kandy, 1971) and also by U Kyaw Khine in the introduction to his
        > translation of the Dhammasa"nganii. Therefore, I will render only
        > some salient features of each book with the purpose to show that the
        > classifications found in the Abhidhamma are not mere lists to be read
        > and memorized. They all point to the investigation of the realities
        > of our daily life. In this way the pa~n~naa is developed that sees
        > realities as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. This kind
        > of pa~n~naa leads to the eradication of defilements.
        >
        > The commentary to the Dhammasa"nganii, the first book, is the
        > "Atthasaalinii", edited by the venerable Buddhaghosa and translated
        > as "Expositor",
        > The Dhammasa"nganii, begins, after the Matika, with a description of
        > mahaa-kusala citta (kusala citta of the sense sphere) accompanied by
        > pa~n~naa. It enumerates all the sobhana cetasikas assisting this
        > citta while they accompany it just for a moment. It refers to mahaa-
        > kusala citta experiencing an object, be it visible object, sound,
        > odour, flavour, tangible object or dhamma object. This points to
        > daily life. Time and again citta experiences an object through one of
        > the six doors.
        > The Dhammasa"nganii states with regard to the first type of mahaa-
        > kusala citta of the sense sphere:<At a time (yasmi.m samaye) when
        > mahaa-kusala citta of the sense sphere accompanied by joy and
        > associated with understanding has arisen...> and then sums up the
        > accompanying cetasikas. The "Expositor" (p. 76) explains the word
        > samaya as time, occasion, concurrence of conditions, the mutual
        > contribution towards the production of a common result: <By this word
        > showing thus the condition, the conceit of one who believes that
        > states unconditionally follow one's own will is subdued.>
        > We cling to the idea of our own will that can direct dhammas, but
        > this is not according to reality. Will or volition, be it wholesome,
        > unwholesome or indeterminate, is only a conditioned element.
        > The mahaa-kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasikas that always
        > accompany citta, the "universals", such as contact, feeling or
        > remembrance, sa~n~naa, as well as by the `particulars', pakinnakas,
        > cetasikas that accompany many cittas but not all. Then follows a list
        > of all the sobhana cetasikas necessary for the arising of even one
        > moment of kusala citta of the sense sphere.
        > For example, the cetasika confidence or faith, saddhaa, always has to
        > accompany kusala citta. If there is no confidence in kusala, kusala
        > citta could not arise. There have to be non-attachment and non-
        > aversion. When we perform daana or observe siila we are not selfish,
        > we are not thinking of our own pleasure and comfort. There is calm
        > with each kusala citta, at such a moment there is no agitation. There
        > has to be sati which is non-forgetful of kusala. Sobhana cetasikas
        > are necessary so that mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa can arise just
        > for one extremely brief moment and perform its function, and then
        > citta and cetasikas fall away together. The cetasikas condition the
        > citta by way of conascence-condition and by several other conditions.
        > Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there
        > is no one who can direct its arising. It arises when the right
        > conditions are present and then it falls away immediately, nobody can
        > cause it to last. All the sobhana cetasikas that fall away are
        > accumulated from moment to moment so that there are conditions for
        > the arising again of kusala citta.
        > We shall see that several cetasikas are listed more than once
        > under different aspects, such as understanding as faculty, or as
        > power. The list ends with: sampajañña (sati and pañña), samatha,
        > vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is the faculty of energy),
        > avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word for ekaggata
        > cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration).
        > Thus we see that these lists are not a mere summing up, but that
        > they point to the development of right understanding of realities.
        >
        > *******
        > Nina.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Thomas, Good you ask, it is important. ... N: Maatikaa has been translated as table of contents, or matrix. It is more extensive than a table of contents.
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 8, 2010
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          Dear Thomas,
          Good you ask, it is important.
          Op 4-aug-2010, om 4:34 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

          > Regarding matika you mentioned below, could you explain what is
          > "matika"? Can this term also be used/presented in other Abhidhamma
          > texts?
          ------
          N: Maatikaa has been translated as table of contents, or matrix. It
          is more extensive than a table of contents. This maatikaa has been
          arranged by way of triads and dyads. It is a survey of the contents
          of the first book and can even serve as an introduction to all seven
          books. Different groups of defilements have been listed, such as the
          intoxicants (aasavas), fetters, ties, floods, yokes, hindrances.
          After the Abhidhamma matrix there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
          sutta terms. The Atthasaalinii, the commentary to the
          Dhammasa"nganii, dedicates a whole chapter to explain the notions of
          the Maatika.
          The Maatikaa begins with: kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyaakata
          dhammaa.
          In these three terms all that is real has been contained. In
          avyaakata dhammaa, indeterminate dhammas, are included all realities
          that are not kusala or akusala, namely: vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas,
          ruupas and nibbaana.
          The whole Tipi.taka is directed towards liberation of the cycle of
          birth and death through insight. This appears also in the Maatika,
          where we read (!013-1015): "Dhammas going to building up; going to
          pulling down; going to neither."
          The Atthasaalinii elaborates: " 'accumulation' means that which is
          accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes
          of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes
          which by being accomplished to go to, lead a man, in whom they arise,
          to that round of rebirth'. It is a name for co-intoxicant moral or
          immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation', which is
          another word for 'accumulation', is called dispersion. 'Leading to
          dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his
          object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to
          accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging
          (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who
          arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion'
          are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a
          man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason."
          ------
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • thomaslaw03
          Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. Do you mean that the term, Maatikaa, `does not actually presented in the other six Abhidhamma books, but only
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 8, 2010
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            Dear Nina,

            Thank you very much for your reply.

            Do you mean that the term, Maatikaa, `does not actually presented' in the other six Abhidhamma books, but only in meaning, Maatikaa ("a table of contents, or matrix") can be served as an introduction to the other books?

            It seems to me Maatikaa means simply the fundamental topics/subject headings (of the Buddha teachings).

            You also mention Suttanta matrix ("After the Abhidhamma matrix there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
            sutta terms."). Could you give some details of the Suttanta matrix? Thank you.

            Investigating the differences and similarities of the Abhidhamma matrix and Suttanta matrix may help us to understand more in history on the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism.

            Regards,

            Thomas Law

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Thomas,
            > Good you ask, it is important.
            > Op 4-aug-2010, om 4:34 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > > Regarding matika you mentioned below, could you explain what is
            > > "matika"? Can this term also be used/presented in other Abhidhamma
            > > texts?
            > ------
            > N: Maatikaa has been translated as table of contents, or matrix. It
            > is more extensive than a table of contents. This maatikaa has been
            > arranged by way of triads and dyads. It is a survey of the contents
            > of the first book and can even serve as an introduction to all seven
            > books. Different groups of defilements have been listed, such as the
            > intoxicants (aasavas), fetters, ties, floods, yokes, hindrances.
            > After the Abhidhamma matrix there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
            > sutta terms. The Atthasaalinii, the commentary to the
            > Dhammasa"nganii, dedicates a whole chapter to explain the notions of
            > the Maatika.
            > The Maatikaa begins with: kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyaakata
            > dhammaa.
            > In these three terms all that is real has been contained. In
            > avyaakata dhammaa, indeterminate dhammas, are included all realities
            > that are not kusala or akusala, namely: vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas,
            > ruupas and nibbaana.
            > The whole Tipi.taka is directed towards liberation of the cycle of
            > birth and death through insight. This appears also in the Maatika,
            > where we read (!013-1015): "Dhammas going to building up; going to
            > pulling down; going to neither."
            > The Atthasaalinii elaborates: " 'accumulation' means that which is
            > accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes
            > of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes
            > which by being accomplished to go to, lead a man, in whom they arise,
            > to that round of rebirth'. It is a name for co-intoxicant moral or
            > immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation', which is
            > another word for 'accumulation', is called dispersion. 'Leading to
            > dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his
            > object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to
            > accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging
            > (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who
            > arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion'
            > are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a
            > man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason."
            > ------
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Thomas, ... N: Yes, they comprise fundamental topics. This matrix precedes in the text the first book, but it is basic for the whole of the Abhidhamma.
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 10, 2010
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              Dear Thomas,
              Op 9-aug-2010, om 3:05 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

              > Do you mean that the term, Maatikaa, `does not actually presented'
              > in the other six Abhidhamma books, but only in meaning, Maatikaa
              > ("a table of contents, or matrix") can be served as an introduction
              > to the other books?
              > It seems to me Maatikaa means simply the fundamental topics/subject
              > headings (of the Buddha teachings).
              -------
              N: Yes, they comprise fundamental topics. This matrix precedes in the
              text the first book, but it is basic for the whole of the Abhidhamma.
              --------
              >
              > Th: You also mention Suttanta matrix ("After the Abhidhamma matrix
              > there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
              > sutta terms."). Could you give some details of the Suttanta matrix?
              -------
              N: Ven. Nyanatiloka in his 'Guide to the Abhidhamma Pi.taka' states
              that practically all the terms can be traced to the Sutta Pi.taka,
              chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya. He states: 'Also
              most of the terms of the Abhidhamma Matrix itself can be traced back
              to the Suttas, or are derived from Sutta terms and teachings: an
              illustration of the close inner connection between the teachings of
              the two Pi.takas.'
              Some details: <States that partake of wisdom; do not partake of wisdom.
              States that resemble lightning; are comparable to the
              thunderbolt....Naama and ruupa. Ignorance and craving for rebirth...>
              The 'Atthasaalinii' elaborates on all of these terms.
              -------
              >
              > Th: Investigating the differences and similarities of the
              > Abhidhamma matrix and Suttanta matrix may help us to understand
              > more in history on the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism.
              -----
              N: The subject of history has been often discussed and a great deal
              has been written about it already. There are different opinions. I am
              interested in the contents of the Abhidhamma. To what extent can one
              verify what has been taught, in how far does it help in the
              development of insight.

              For those who are interested in history this link may be useful:
              The Historical Background of the Abhidhamma Studies in Myanmar
              http://atbu.org/node/12

              --------
              Nina






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • thomaslaw03
              Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 10, 2010
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                Dear Nina,

                Thanks for your reply.

                Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka, and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?

                Regards,

                Thomas Law

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Thomas,
                > Op 9-aug-2010, om 3:05 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > > Do you mean that the term, Maatikaa, `does not actually presented'
                > > in the other six Abhidhamma books, but only in meaning, Maatikaa
                > > ("a table of contents, or matrix") can be served as an introduction
                > > to the other books?
                > > It seems to me Maatikaa means simply the fundamental topics/subject
                > > headings (of the Buddha teachings).
                > -------
                > N: Yes, they comprise fundamental topics. This matrix precedes in the
                > text the first book, but it is basic for the whole of the Abhidhamma.
                > --------
                > >
                > > Th: You also mention Suttanta matrix ("After the Abhidhamma matrix
                > > there is a Suttanta matrix, explaining
                > > sutta terms."). Could you give some details of the Suttanta matrix?
                > -------
                > N: Ven. Nyanatiloka in his 'Guide to the Abhidhamma Pi.taka' states
                > that practically all the terms can be traced to the Sutta Pi.taka,
                > chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya. He states: 'Also
                > most of the terms of the Abhidhamma Matrix itself can be traced back
                > to the Suttas, or are derived from Sutta terms and teachings: an
                > illustration of the close inner connection between the teachings of
                > the two Pi.takas.'
                > Some details: <States that partake of wisdom; do not partake of wisdom.
                > States that resemble lightning; are comparable to the
                > thunderbolt....Naama and ruupa. Ignorance and craving for rebirth...>
                > The 'Atthasaalinii' elaborates on all of these terms.
                > -------
                > >
                > > Th: Investigating the differences and similarities of the
                > > Abhidhamma matrix and Suttanta matrix may help us to understand
                > > more in history on the fundamental teachings of Early Buddhism.
                > -----
                > N: The subject of history has been often discussed and a great deal
                > has been written about it already. There are different opinions. I am
                > interested in the contents of the Abhidhamma. To what extent can one
                > verify what has been taught, in how far does it help in the
                > development of insight.
                >
                > For those who are interested in history this link may be useful:
                > The Historical Background of the Abhidhamma Studies in Myanmar
                > http://atbu.org/node/12
                >
                > --------
                > Nina
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Thomas, ... N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 14, 2010
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                  Dear Thomas,
                  Op 11-aug-2010, om 4:19 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

                  > Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not
                  > actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka,
                  > and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali
                  > tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta
                  > Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?
                  ------
                  N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand
                  your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
                  Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Suttanta Maatrix may be regarded as a kind of
                  appendix. I do not know more about it, but just render what I found.
                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • thomaslaw03
                  Dear Nina, I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me. I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 14, 2010
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                    Dear Nina,

                    I am very sorry for my mistakes. Please forgive me.

                    I mean to ask: Do you also mean that this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not actually appeared in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka, and their Pali commentaries? If this term does not actually exist or present in those collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

                    In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt., is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings).

                    The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).

                    However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition, but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure) of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.

                    Hope you can understand my questions. Any advice?

                    Sincerely,

                    Thomas Law

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Thomas,
                    > Op 11-aug-2010, om 4:19 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
                    >
                    > > Do you also mean that the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, does not
                    > > actually exist or presented in the Abhidhamma pitaka, Sutta pitaka,
                    > > and their Pali commentaries? If this is correct, then, the Pali
                    > > tradition does not really have the tradition of `Suttanta
                    > > Maatikaa'(It is just making up the term)?
                    > ------
                    > N: Maatika just means table of contents. I do not quite understand
                    > your question. As Ven. Nyanatiloka explains in his Guide through the
                    > Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Suttanta Maatrix may be regarded as a kind of
                    > appendix. I do not know more about it, but just render what I found.
                    > Nina.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Thomas, ... N: I just open my Dhammasa ngani text and it says: Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma. B. Suttanta. ... In the translation of U Kyaw Khine: Suttantika
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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                      Dear Thomas,
                      Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

                      > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
                      > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
                      > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
                      > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
                      > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
                      ------
                      N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
                      Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
                      B. Suttanta.
                      -------
                      In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
                      I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
                      -------
                      > Th:
                      > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
                      > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
                      > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
                      > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
                      > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
                      >
                      > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
                      > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
                      > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
                      > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
                      > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
                      > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
                      > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
                      >
                      > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
                      > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
                      > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
                      > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
                      > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
                      > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
                      -------
                      N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
                      the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
                      many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
                      to the suttas, uses the same similes.
                      -----
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • thomaslaw03
                      Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind reply. ... So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared only in the Dhammasa ngani text? And the subject headings
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 15, 2010
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                        Dear Nina,

                        Thank you very much for your kind reply.

                        "N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
                        > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
                        > B. Suttanta.
                        > -------
                        > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
                        > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything."

                        So, the term, Suttata Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the Dhammasa"ngani text?

                        And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?

                        Are these correct?

                        Sincerely,

                        Thomas Law

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Thomas,
                        > Op 15-aug-2010, om 6:22 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
                        >
                        > > If this term does not actually exist or present in those
                        > > collections, then the Pali tradition does not really preserve the
                        > > tradition or concept (the term) regarding "Suttanta Maatikaa". It
                        > > is here (by Ven. Nyanatiloka?) just making up the expression or
                        > > phrase for the his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
                        > ------
                        > N: I just open my Dhammasa"ngani text and it says:
                        > Maatikaa: A. Abhidhamma.
                        > B. Suttanta.
                        > -------
                        > In the translation of U Kyaw Khine:'Suttantika Duka Maatikaa.'
                        > I see no problem here. Ven. Nyanatiloka did not alter anything.
                        > -------
                        > > Th:
                        > > In other words, Suttanta Maatikaa, i.e. Suutra-maat.rkaa in Skt.,
                        > > is "only" appeared in the "Mahayana" Yogacara-bhumi-sastra or
                        > > "Sarvastivada" tradition, but not in the Pali tradition. The Pali
                        > > tradition simply regards all subject headings/fundamental topics
                        > > shown in the Sutta pitaka are maatikaa (of the Buddha teachings)....
                        > >
                        > > The topics (subject headings) of the Suutra-maat.rkaa found in the
                        > > Yogacara-bhumi-sastra/Sarvastivada tradition correspond quite
                        > > closely to the structure of some Pali Abhidhamma books, including
                        > > non-Pali Abhidharmas, and the major part of Samyutta-nikaya/
                        > > Samyukta-agama. I get this information from the books, The
                        > > Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (by Choong Mun-keat), and
                        > > The Buddhist Path to Awakening (by R. M. L. Gethin).
                        > >
                        > > However, if this term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is not appeared in the
                        > > Abhidhamma and Sutta pitakas, and their Pali commentaries, then the
                        > > Pali tradition does not really preserve or maintain the tradition
                        > > of "Suttanta Maatikaa". It may be just lost in the Pali tradition,
                        > > but found only in the maatikaas (subject headings or the structure)
                        > > of some Abhidhamma books, such as Vibhanga.
                        > -------
                        > N: I do not know enough about other traditions to go into this. Is
                        > the whole subject perhaps just a matter of words? The Vibha"nga has
                        > many references to the suttas, and also the puggala pa~n~natti refers
                        > to the suttas, uses the same similes.
                        > -----
                        > Nina.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Thomas, ... N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere. ... N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be traced back to the Sutta Pi.taka,
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 16, 2010
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                          Dear Thomas,
                          Op 16-aug-2010, om 3:57 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

                          > So, the term, Suttanta Maatikaa, is appeared "only" in the
                          > Dhammasa"ngani text?
                          -----
                          N: Correct. I did not see it elsewhere.
                          ------
                          >
                          > Th: And the subject headings for Suttata Maatikaa, according to
                          > your previous posting, are "chiefly the Sangiitisutta, or the
                          > Anguttara Nikaaya" (according to the Dhammasa"ngani text?)?
                          ------
                          N: I would not say it a little differently: The terms can be 'traced
                          back to the Sutta Pi.taka, chiefly to the Sangiiti sutta or the
                          Anguttara Nijaaya...' according to Ven. Nyanatiloka.
                          -----
                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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