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Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.3 Baala Vagga (4), 5.

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  • Bryan Levman
    Hi Yong Peng I think vasena in this
    Message 1 of 46 , Jul 24, 2010
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      Hi Yong Peng

      <niitatthanti yathaarutavasena ~naatabbattha.m: meaning should be known, (?) as
      if by the influence of the sound (?).>

      I think vasena in this case just means "because of" and yathaaruta, means
      "according to the sound (only)" - i. e. according to the normal meaning of the
      words, not requiring interpretation, according to its plain or clear meaning
      (see Monier Williams s.v . nitaartha),

      Metta, Bryan






      ________________________________
      From: Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, July 24, 2010 1:26:16 PM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: AN2.3 Baala Vagga (4), 5.


      Dear Nina,

      thanks for bringing up the commentary. ;-) I have a look and it says,

      neyyattha.m ... netabbattha.m ...: meaning should be offered.

      niitattho ... kathitattho ...: meaning revealed.

      So, PTS English is not far off to have "already explained" and "needing
      explanation" for niitattha and neyyattha respectively.

      The commentary further comments that where the paramattha (anicca, dukkha,
      anatta) is not given, then it is neyyattha, but the fool would say that it is
      niitattha; and where the paramattha is given, the fool would treat it otherwise
      and say it requires further explanation.

      I also have a look at Nettippakara.na commentary, in which the relevant section
      has,

      neyyatthanti niddhaaretvaa gahetabbattha.m: meaning should be provided and
      taken.

      niitatthanti yathaarutavasena ~naatabbattha.m: meaning should be known, (?) as
      if by the influence of the sound (?).

      The verb neti can also mean: to understand, in addition to: to guide. However,
      the traditional views of the commentary suggest differently.

      It is also interesting to note that both neyya and niita are derived from neti:
      neyya (gerundive) and niita (past participle).

      metta,
      Yong Peng.

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

      > For (a) neyyattha suttanta, and (b) niitattha suttanta. I take
      > both neyyattha and niitattha as adjectives.
      > PTS PED lists neyyattha as the compound "neyya attha", i.e.
      > meaning to be understood, and niitattha as the opposite. I also
      > have a look under the entry attha, it says niitattha = primary
      > meaning, literal meaning; neyyattha = secondary or inferred meaning.

      > Putting these together, I would suggest "neyyattha suttanta" as
      > "discourse with meaning to be understood, or requiring some
      > interpretation", and "niitattha suttanta" as "discourse which can
      > be understood literally, or not requiring any interpretation".

      N: The PED point to the netti pakara.na commentary and this is similar to what
      you suggest: <One whose meaning is already guided? One whose meaning has yet to
      be guided>
      Footnote: niitatthaa and neyyattha. From neti: to guide.
      I do not take so much to PED's primary meaning and secondary meaning. Niitattha
      is of the past, already 'concluded' or explained. I would think that the meaning
      has been explained already, it does not need to be explained again.






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Bryan and Nina, thanks for your corrections and notes. I will rewrite one affected sentence as follow: Samatho, bhikkhave, bhaavito kamatthamanubhoti?
      Message 46 of 46 , Sep 6, 2010
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        Dear Bryan and Nina,

        thanks for your corrections and notes. I will rewrite one affected sentence as follow:

        Samatho, bhikkhave, bhaavito kamatthamanubhoti?
        tranquility / monks / developed / what-benefit-achieves
        O monks, what good does developed tranquility accomplish?

        kamatthamanubhoti = ka.m atthamanubhoti.
        - ka (pronoun) what?
        - atthamanubhoti = attha.m anubhoti (phrase) achieves benefit.
        -- attha (m) benefit, gain, profit.
        -- anubhoti (v) gets, achieves.

        I will also rewrite the last sentence as follow:

        Iti kho, bhikkhave, raagaviraagaa cetovimutti, avijjaaviraagaa pa~n~naavimuttii"ti.
        thus / indeed / monks / detached of greed / release of mind / detached of ignorance / release of wisdom
        And indeed, O monks, absence of greed (is) the release of the mind, absence of ignorance (is) the release of wisdom."

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        >> Samatho, bhikkhave, bhaavito kamatthamanubhoti?
        >> tranquility / monks / developed / why-endeavours
        >> Why, O monks, does (one) endeavour developing tranquility?

        > attamanubhoti is an idiom meaning "to fare well, to have a (good) result" (PED s.v. attha), so I would translate something like, "What is the (good) result of tranquility that has been cultivated?" or "What is the result of developed tranquility?"

        N: P.T.S. has: what profit results... A.t.tha means aim but also profit or benefit.
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