Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Pali] Re: Abhidhamma Series, no 18. Rebirth in different planes of existence. (part 1)

Expand Messages
  • Dhammadarsa
    Dear all Could someone explain in clear and brief terms how the Abhidhamma theory of rebirth linking consciousness fits with the Sutta explanation that there
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 11, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear all



      Could someone explain in clear and brief terms how the Abhidhamma theory of
      rebirth linking consciousness fits with the Sutta explanation that there are
      only six types of consciousness and they all arise and depend on a sense
      object and a sense organ? Or possibly in other words: which of the six types
      of consciousness is rebirth linking consciousness?



      I have for a long time wondered about this.



      Kind Regards







      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect =
      Intelligence




      Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
      Buddhist Monk

      Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
      Wang Noi
      Ayuthaya
      Thailand


      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa


      mobile:

      +66850941669





      <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
      invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

      <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
      a signature like this?



      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      sakyaputtiyo_samana
      Sent: Friday, 11 June 2010 12:58 AM
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Pali] Re: Abhidhamma Series, no 18. Rebirth in different planes of
      existence. (part 1)





      Dear
      I just wanted to remind you of the 20th type of rebirth linking. THis occurs
      but without any rebirth linking consciousness. I am sure you know about this
      very well.

      May All Beings Be Well and Happy
      Bhante

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , Nina van
      Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear friends,
      >
      > Rebirth in different planes of existence. (part 1)
      >
      > Akusala kamma and kusala kamma of different beings can produce
      > nineteen different types of rebirth-consciousness, pa.tisandhi-citta,
      > in all, arising in different planes of existence. The
      > pa.tisandhicitta is vipaakacitta, the result of kamma. One
      > pa.tisandhi-citta is akusala vipaaka and eighteen types are kusala
      > vipaaka. There are many degrees of each of these nineteen types of
      > pa.tisandhi-citta because the kamma that produces them can be of many
      > degrees.
      > Birth in a woeful plane is the result of a bad deed and birth in a
      > happy plane is the result of a good deed. Since the deeds of beings
      > are of many different degrees of kusala and akusala, the results are
      > of many different degrees as well. The pa.tisandhi-citta that is
      > akusala vipaakacitta arises in an unhappy plane of existence and the
      > pa.tisandhi-citta that is kusala vipaakacitta arises in a happy plane
      > of existence. A plane of existence is the place where one is born.
      > There are different woeful planes and different happy planes of
      > existence.
      > Only one type of pa.tisandhi-citta is akusala vipaaka, but it is of
      > many degrees. There are many varieties of akusala kamma and thus
      > there must be many varieties of an unhappy rebirth. The unhappy
      > rebirth we can see in this world is birth as an animal. Apart from
      > the animal world there are three more classes of woeful planes, which
      > we cannot see; they are the world of petas (ghosts), the world of
      > asuras (demons), and the hell planes. There are different kinds of
      > hell planes because there are many degrees of akusala kamma which
      > produce different kinds of unhappy rebirth.
      > The akusala vipåka in hell is more intense than the sufferings which
      > can be experienced in the human plane. The descriptions of hells in
      > the Buddhist teachings are not merely allegories; the experience of
      > unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense is
      > akusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka is reality. Life in a hell plane
      > is not permanent; when one's lifespan in a hell plane is over there
      > can be rebirth in another plane.
      > Birth as a human being is a happy rebirth. In the human plane there
      > is opportunity for the development of kusala. One can study Dhamma
      > and learn to develop the way leading to the end of defilements, to
      > the end of birth and death. Birth in the human plane is kusala
      > vipaaka, but during one's lifespan in this plane there are both
      > kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Each person experiences different
      > results in life: there are gain and loss, honour and dishonour,
      > praise and blame, happiness and misery. It is due to kamma whether
      > someone is born into pleasant or unpleasant surroundings, whether he
      > belongs to a family which is well-to-do or which is poor. The
      > experience of pleasant and unpleasant things through eyes, ears,
      > nose, tongue and bodysense are the results of kamma.
      > Other happy planes, apart from the human plane, are the heavenly
      > planes. In the heavenly planes there is more kusala vipåka than in
      > the human plane and less akusala vipåka. There are several heavenly
      > planes and although life in a heavenly plane lasts a very long time,
      > it is not permanent. The woeful planes, the human plane and the six
      > heavenly planes which are deva planes, are sensuous planes of
      > existence. Sensuous planes of existence are planes where there is
      > seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, the experience of tangible object
      > through the bodysense and other kaamaavacara cittas (cittas which are
      > of the sensuous plane of consciousness). There are eleven classes of
      > sensuous planes of existence in all.
      > In the "Discourse on the Lesser Analysis of Deeds" (Middle Length
      > Sayings III, number 135) we read that Subha asks the Buddha what the
      > cause is of the different results human beings experience from the
      > time of their birth:
      >
      > "Now, good Gotama, what is the cause, what is the reason that lowness
      > and excellence are to be seen among human beings while they are in
      > human form? For, good Gotama, human beings of short lifespan are to
      > be seen and those of long lifespan; those of many and those of few
      > illnesses; those who are ugly, those who are beautiful; those who are
      > of little account, those of great account; those who are poor, those
      > who are wealthy; those who are of lowly families, those of high
      > families; those who are weak in wisdom, those who are full of wisdom."
      >
      > The Buddha answered Subha:
      > "Deeds are one's own, brahman youth, beings are heirs to deeds, deeds
      > are matrix, deeds are kin, deeds are arbiters. Deed divides beings,
      > that is to say by lowness and excellence."
      >
      > *********
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Dhammadarsa, I will pay attention to your good question soon, but I am just back from a trip, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 14, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Dhammadarsa,
        I will pay attention to your good question soon, but I am just back
        from a trip,
        Nina.
        Op 11-jun-2010, om 14:08 heeft Dhammadarsa het volgende geschreven:

        > Could someone explain in clear and brief terms how the Abhidhamma
        > theory of
        > rebirth linking consciousness fits with the Sutta explanation that
        > there are
        > only six types of consciousness and they all arise and depend on a
        > sense
        > object and a sense organ? Or possibly in other words: which of the
        > six types
        > of consciousness is rebirth linking consciousness?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadarsa, Excuse me please for addressing you wrongly in my previous post, I saw this too late. ... N: It is right that in the suttas we
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 15, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadarsa,
          Excuse me please for addressing you wrongly in my previous post, I
          saw this too late.
          Op 11-jun-2010, om 14:08 heeft Dhammadarsa het volgende geschreven:

          > Could someone explain in clear and brief terms how the Abhidhamma
          > theory of
          > rebirth linking consciousness fits with the Sutta explanation that
          > there are
          > only six types of consciousness and they all arise and depend on a
          > sense
          > object and a sense organ? Or possibly in other words: which of the
          > six types
          > of consciousness is rebirth linking consciousness?
          >
          > I have for a long time wondered about this.
          ---------
          N: It is right that in the suttas we find the sixfolld
          classification. For example, in the Sangiitisutta (Diigha Nikaya),
          the Sixes: <Cha vi~n~naa.nakaayaa - cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m,
          sotavi~n~naa.na.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m, jivhaavi~n~naa.na.m,
          kaayavi~n~naa.na.m, manovi~n~naa.na.m.
          Walshe
          Six groups of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na-kaayaa): eye-consciousness,
          ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness.>
          As to the five sense-cognitions, these can be kusala vipaakacitta or
          akusala vipaakacitta.
          Mind-consciousness, manovi~n~naa.na, includes all types of cittas
          other than the five sense-cognitions.
          In the following paragraph of this sutta phassa contact, has been
          classified in a similar way.

          <Cha phassakaayaa - cakkhusamphasso, sotasamphasso,
          ghaanasamphasso, jivhaasamphasso, kaayasamphasso, manosamphasso.

          Olds
          Six bodies of contact: Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-
          contact, body-contact, mind-contact.>
          ---------
          N: As to eye-contact, the co. states: contact dependent on the eye.
          Phassa is the cetasika phassa that accompanies every citta. It asists
          the citta to cognize an object.
          The co. explains ear-contact in the same way. It states that except
          for the ten contacts (N: phassa accompanmying the ten vipaakacittas,
          five kusala vipaaka and five akusala vipaaka) all other contacts are
          called mano-samphassa, mind-contact.
          Thus, this arises with mano-vi~n~naa.na, that is, all cittas apart
          from the five sense-cognitions.
          ---------
          There are many ways of classifying citta: as threefold: kusala,
          akusala or avyaakata (indeterminate, including kiriya and vipaaka).
          By way of the four jaatis of kusala. akusala, vipaaka and kiriya.
          They can be classified according to plane of citta, as sensuous
          plane, ruupa-jhaana citta, aruupajhaanacitta and lokuttara citta.
          They can be classified in accordance with the plane of existence
          where they arise. They can be classified according to the functions
          they perform in the processes, and outside the processes.
          As to outside the process, this refers to the rebirth-consciousness,
          bhavangacitta and dying-conciousness in one lifespan. These cittas do
          not experience objects that impinge on the six doors, but they
          experience the same object as that experienced by the last javana-
          cittas of the previous life.
          Thus, the function of rebirth-consciousness is not performed by the
          five sense-cognitions which experience sense objects impinging on the
          different doorways . It is performed by vipaakacittas included in
          mano-vi~n~naa.na. Thus, mano-vi~n~naa.na does not only include the
          cittas experiencing a sense object and depending on a sense organ,
          but also those who are 'doorfreed' and 'process freed'.

          The Abhidhamma and the commentary give more details than the suttas
          as to classifying cittas.
          It may be helpful to consider the aayatanas and especially
          manaayatana which also includes all cittas.

          There are twelve aayatanas in all:
          six internal bases: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose,
          the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness
          (manåyatana),
          six external bases: which are six classes of objects: visible object,
          sound, odour, taste, tactile object and dhammåyatana, comprising:
          cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna.

          Respectfully,
          Nina.






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Venerable Bhante, Op 10-jun-2010, om 19:57 heeft sakyaputtiyo_samana het volgende ... N: Thank you. This is rebirth in the asa~n~nasatta plane. For those who
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 15, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Venerable Bhante,
            Op 10-jun-2010, om 19:57 heeft sakyaputtiyo_samana het volgende
            geschreven:

            > I just wanted to remind you of the 20th type of rebirth linking.
            > THis occurs but without any rebirth linking consciousness. I am
            > sure you know about this very well.
            ---------
            N: Thank you. This is rebirth in the asa~n~nasatta plane. For those
            who are not familiar with this: those who cultivate ruupajhaana and
            see the disadvantage of naama may be reborn in a plane where there is
            only ruupa, not naama. Thus here is not a rebirth-consciousness, only
            ruupa-pa.tisandhi.
            Bhante, I am always considering how many details I shall mention.
            This series is more a general intro for those who are not so familiar
            with the Abhidhamma and I am careful not to give too many details and
            classifications. I give this matter much thought. But I am always
            open to suggestions. It is hard to find a balance. Those who want
            more details could read my books: Abhidhamma in Daily life, as well
            as Cetasikas and The Buddha's Teaching on Physical Phenomena.
            To be read and copied on Zolag web.
            with respect,
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina and friends, I agree with Nina. Our focus on this list is Pali and the Nikayas (as in the Sutta Pitaka). However, I believe we should have a fuller
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 16, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Nina and friends,

              I agree with Nina. Our focus on this list is Pali and the Nikayas (as in the Sutta Pitaka). However, I believe we should have a "fuller canonical" appreciation of Tipitaka, hence I requested you for a general introduction to Abhidhamma. We may do something similar for the Vinaya in the future. However, I think we should not lose sight of our focus on Pali and the Nikayas. So, an in-depth analysis of the Abhidhamma or Vinaya is probably too much for us now. Just like we occasionally touch on language, history, various Buddhist cultures and schools of thoughts, these discussions help us to think outside the box, but we do not advance too far. For all these topics, members can still share and contribute freely, and recommend suitable reference materials, etc., but should avoid venturing too far. Also, please refrain from obvious "commercial-style" promotions or advertisements or aggressive marketing.

              Nina, still, please provide assistance to questions from members as you see fit. I understand you are also active on other forums. You may like to suggest something suitable too when adequate. Thank you.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

              This series is more a general intro for those who are not so familiar with the Abhidhamma and I am careful not to give too many details and classifications. I give this matter much thought. But I am always open to suggestions. It is hard to find a balance. Those who want more details could read my books: Abhidhamma in Daily life, as well as Cetasikas and The Buddha's Teaching on Physical Phenomena. To be read and copied on Zolag web.
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.