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Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (12/14)

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  • Lennart Lopin
    Hi Jim, ... Oh, now I got your point! This is how I understood it first: pahiinam. as a ppp is used here as an adjective to describe the akusalam. So it s just
    Message 1 of 97 , Apr 1, 2010
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      Hi Jim,



      > << Akusala~nca hida.m, bhikkhave, pahiina.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya
      > sa.mvatteyya naaha.m eva.m vadeyya.m - 'akusala.m, bhikkhave,
      > pajahathaa'ti. >>
      >
      > << If, verily, this unwholesome(ness), o monks, which was given up
      > (pah─źnam)
      > would conduce to suffering and harmfulness then I would not say thus: "Give
      >
      > up the unwholesome". >>
      >
      > Take "If, verily, this unwholesome(ness). . . would conduce to suffering
      > and
      > harmfulness. . ."
      >
      > Here, "unwholesome(ness)" in the above translation is the subject of the
      > verb "would conduce" (sa.mvatteyya) which is not logical considering that
      > it
      > was given up but it would make good sense if the subject were, instead,
      > "akusalassa pahaana.m" --- if the giving up of the unwholesome would
      > conduce
      > to suffering, etc. One also has to wonder how the given-up unwholesomeness
      > per se could conduce to anything since it no longer exists.
      >

      Oh, now I got your point!

      This is how I understood it first:

      pahiinam. as a ppp is used here as an adjective to describe the akusalam. So
      it's just another way of saying the same thing...but instead of your
      suggested akusalassa pahanam. which makes absolute sense, here in the text
      we have a peculiar way of expressing the same idea but making use of the ppp
      adjectively which I would put into a subordinate clause: "if the
      unwholesome, which was given up (i.e. "removed", "of which we got rid") ...
      would lead to pain and harmfulness, then I would not say thus: "Give it
      up"....I admit, the little pahiinam. in this case almost sounds as if it
      would best be put into a subordinate clause by itself and the past
      participle would actually allow for such a translation.

      But of course, you are right, you would rather say: "if the giving up of
      unwholesomeness would lead to suffering...I would not recommend giving it
      up". It maybe simply is a colloquial expression in Pali to formulate it in
      such a pecular way as to say, like the Buddha did: "if unwholesomeness,
      after having been given up, would lead to suffering, then I would not
      recommend such a step, that is to stop implementing unwholesome things". Yes
      logically it sounds strange, but it probably just means "void of
      unwholesomeness"... Maybe Oscar von Hinueber has something to say about this
      usage of pahiinam. or the ppp in general. He wrote this great Pali Syntax
      book which unfortunately I have no access to right now.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
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        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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