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Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (12/14)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Jim and Yong Peng, Jim, thank you very much for your help, most useful. I was so intrigued by the word abhavissa, especially the a prefix, and saw it in
    Message 1 of 97 , Mar 31, 2010
      Dear Jim and Yong Peng,
      Jim, thank you very much for your help, most useful. I was so
      intrigued by the word abhavissa, especially the 'a'prefix, and saw it
      in Warder. But analysing a sentence like this it is quite complicated.

      I repeat the text again for those who may not have followed it:

      Akusala.m, bhikkhave, pajahatha. Sakkaa, bhikkhave, akusala.m
      pajahitu.m. No ceda.m, bhikkhave, sakkaa abhavissa akusala.m
      pajahitu.m, naaha.m eva.m vadeyya.m - 'akusala.m, bhikkhave,
      pajahathaa'ti. Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkhave, sakkaa akusala.m pajahitu.m
      tasmaaha.m eva.m vadaami - 'akusala.m, bhikkhave, pajahathaa'ti.
      Akusala~nca hida.m, bhikkhave, pahiina.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya
      sa.mvatteyya naaha.m eva.m vadeyya.m - 'akusala.m, bhikkhave,
      pajahathaa'ti. Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkhave, akusala.m pahiina.m hitaaya
      sukhaaya sa.mvattati tasmaaha.m eva.m vadaami, " 'akusala.m ,
      bhikkhave, pajahathaa'"ti.

      Nina.

      Op 31-mrt-2010, om 19:59 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

      > > 1. subordinate clause:
      > > akusala~nca hida.m pahiina.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya sa.mvatteyya
      > >
      > > subject: akusala.m (neuter singular)
      > > main verb: sa.mvatteyya (Optative Parassapada 3rd person singular)
      >
      > I would suggest "ida.m" as the subject of the verb "sa.mvatteyya" and
      > "akusala.m" as the subject of an implied verb "abhavissa" from the
      > earlier
      > clause beginning with "no ceda.m" with the conditional verb
      > "abhavissa".
      >
      > My translation of "akusala~nca hida.m pahiina.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya
      > sa.mvatteyya, naaha.m eva.m vadeyya. . ." would go like this:
      >
      > And (if) akusala (were to be) abandoned, that it (ida.m) should
      > lead to
      > harm, to unhappiness; I would not say thus: . . .
      >
      > I think "ida.m" may be referring to a hypothetical situation in which
      > akusala is abandoned.
      >
      > I would translate "ca" in "Yasmaa ca. . ." as "but" (= pana), hence
      > "But
      > because. . ."
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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