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Re: [Pali] choiceless awareness

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  • Jou Smith
    ... From: Kumaara Bhikkhu To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Pali] choiceless
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Kumaara Bhikkhu" <venkumara@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:46 PM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] choiceless awareness

      Jou: Hi Venerable Sir

      >kb> Also, I happen to find the term in a new book by Sayadaw U Silananda's
      >"The Four Foundations of Mindfulness: an exposition of the summary". He
      >says:
      >
      >kb> ... The object at the present moment can be anyone of this four.
      Sometimes
      >the body, sometimes feelings, sometimes consciousness, and sometimes dhamma
      >objects. You have to take these objects as the come; you have no choice.
      >That is why sometimes Vipassanaa meditation is called "choice-less
      >awareness"

      Jou wrote:
      >This question about choiceless awarness and a lot of the questions these
      >days seem to be based on the prolific/popular commentarial interpretation
      of
      >the Buddha's teaching. How many people on this list are more interested in
      >the Buddha's teaching rather than other's interpretations of it? The Buddha
      >gave a study method for his teaching that enables one to rely on oneself
      (or
      >to rely on the Dhamma, as he taught) in working out what he taught. (Later
      >Paali texts or early Paali texts which have been modified do not meet the
      >criteria of the method and would have us believe we are to take refuge in
      >the Triple Gem, but in the early Paali texts -that meet the criteria- the
      >Buddha only spoke of taking refuge in ourselves-in the dhamma and having
      >Unshakable Faith in the Triple Gem.)

      This brings about some questions which I hope you could answer:
      1. Which of the Pali texts are you referring as earlier and later?

      Jou: Not all of a text may be later, there may be sections of texts that
      would probably be later additions. The ones (or sections) that I refer to
      are the ones that do not fit
      with the comparative analysis of teachings that the Buddha advised as in:
      http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html. I do not
      claim to know that they are later, but the evidence seems to suggest so.

      Jou: Giving the references would be very time consuming, rather I give the
      teachings below. Any occurance of the teaching would be a sample. Once a
      modified teaching was accepted as authoritative by the elders of a group of
      monks who memorised the texts, it would immediately be replaced in all
      occurrences. This is very easy to do when the text is stored in memory
      (either in a person or on a computer). So the number of times a specific
      teaching occurs is not really a good indication that it is original.

      What are the "early Paali texts which have been modified"?

      Jou: I can only say which ones *seem* to have been modified by following the
      method mentioned above.

      Jou:
      - Those on the 5 Hindrances that place Doubt as the fifth. (The first
      footnote in the above linked table indicates the misplacement of the fifth
      hindrance.)
      - Those on the 37 Wings of Awakening.
      - Those on the Noble Eightfold Path.
      - Those on the 5 "Siila" rather than the 4 Vices of Conduct.
      - Those on taking the Three Refuges rather the One Refuge (The
      Dhamma -Process of liberation- in oneself)
      - Those on taking refuge in the Triple Gem rather than having unshakable
      faith in the Triple Gem.
      - Those on the Dhammacakka (an external thing) rather than the Dhammacakkhu
      (an internal thing)

      Jou: This does *not* mean that all aspects of these teachings or these
      teaching as a whole are total fabrications, but simply that they do not
      match other teachings of the Buddha (to some degree, either in letter or
      spirit), but now they have been accepted as
      authoritative. Questioning such things is very difficult if we cling to them
      as the total truth.

      Jou: The way I applied the method and the conclusions I came up with above
      are totally covered in my book "The Gift of The Buddha" under review for
      publication with The Buddhist Publication Society and Widsom Publications.

      3. How is such a reckoning deduced?

      Jou: By the study method mentioned before.

      >Does anyone here even know about the
      >method? Has anyone here applied it for themselves?

      I believe there are more than a few in this group who has tried it out,
      since it is widely applied in many Vipassanaa traditions, such as the
      Mahasi.

      Jou: We seem to be talking about different methods. I am talking about the
      method of study (which I see is an initial form of meditation). You seem to
      be talking about a method of meditation (in the more traditional sense).

      I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being.
      ~ Sayadaw U Jotika

      Jou: The Buddha taught not to think "I am..." regarding any of the five
      clinging aggregates. To avoid this one might say "I have feelings too." I
      take this as the meaning the Venerable Monk was alluding to. The Buddha
      taught perfectly in letter and spirit.

      ----------------------------------------------------
      Peace from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith
      ICQ: 183459
      E-mail: josmith.1@...
      Secondary Email: s351543@...
      V-mail: +61 7 (0)500523778
      Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
      S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
      URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
      E-group: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
    • rjkjp1
      ... another thing to ... other. ________________________ Dear Jou, In a conventional sense we can do this or that as we desire. We go left, go right, sit down,
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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        --- In Pali@y..., "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@b...> wrote:

        > > > > Silananda: That is why sometimes Vipassanaa
        > > > > meditation is called "choice-less awareness"
        > > >-----------------------------------
        > > >Jou: Choice-less awareness is illogical <Snip>
        > __________________________
        > > Robert: In what way does awareness involve choice?
        > __________________________________
        >Jou: I can only have intention to do something when there is
        another thing to
        > intend not to do. I choose to intend to do one rather than the
        other.
        ________________________
        Dear Jou,
        In a conventional sense we can do this or that as we desire. We go
        left, go right, sit down, stand up, it seems there is freewill.
        However, this doesn't take account the myriad conditions - past and
        present- that are conditioning each action, each thought . Right now
        I am in a cafe in Bankgkok: I am trying to concentrate on the letter
        but a man is talking loudly on his phone. Thus at one moment there is
        seeing , the next hearing, and thinking coming in between. All
        changing and alternating so fast.
        There can be awareness of the sound or the seeing or the thinking -
        and cetana for sure is present - but if there is a hidden idea
        that "I" am making awareness arise then I think this is not the
        awareness meant by the Satipatthana sutta (on which venerable
        Silananda was expounding in his statement).
        Robert
      • tzungkuen
        ... These questions are very important. Some Buddhist scholars have been trying to find out , with different methods, which part in Pali or Agama Canon is the
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 25, 2002
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          Dear Kumâra Bhikkhu,Jou, and other friends:


          >This brings about some questions which I hope you could answer:
          >1. Which of the Pali texts are you referring as earlier and later?
          >2. What are the "early Paali texts which have been modified"?
          >3. How is such a reckoning deduced?

          These questions are very important. Some Buddhist scholars have been trying to find out , with different methods, which part in Pali or Agama Canon is the oldest thereby the original parts of the teaching of Buddha. However in my openion, ,all the methods they used seem to be speculative and questionalbe. I hope Jou would be kind to explain the method by which Buddhist scholars used to distinguish the earlier parts and the later parts of Pali Canon.

          >I believe there are more than a few in this group who has tried it out, since it is widely >applied in many Vipassanaa traditions, such as the Mahasi.

          As a temporal bhikkhu, I stayed in Chanmyay Sayadaw Meditation Center practicing Vipassana meditation of Mahasi's method for about 50 days in 1999. The experience is very great and memorable. And as a Buddhist researcher with BA degree in Taiwan, I don't think Buddhist Scholars who understands Buddhism only by reading and logical thinking will understand Buddha's central teaching better than those Bhikkhus practicing Vipassana meditation industriously all his life like Mahasi Sayadaw and Silananda Sayadaw.


          With metta

          Tzungkuen


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jou Smith
          ... From: Nina van Gorkom To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 7, 2003
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@...>
            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries

            Dear Jou,

            Jou: Hi Nina

            I completely agree with what you say:
            <The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his beside
            the
            > teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
            Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
            Abhidhamma, these three.

            Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma as
            the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have some
            words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma along
            with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
            secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.

            And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator Buddhaghosa.
            The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
            appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
            Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
            ourselves.

            Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as well as
            an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that helped.

            I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the dhaatus,
            the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,

            Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not address
            the contradictions within the Tipitaka.

            the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
            Tipitaka.

            Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed our
            different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong because
            it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that the
            Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As such
            he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that he
            taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not need
            modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I see
            it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is what
            I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
            Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own experience.

            Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the Visuddhimagga all
            the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about the
            development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning student.

            Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates as I,
            me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
            scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
            maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are being
            humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the process of
            identification with the five aggregates.

            But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next to it
            subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I find
            one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
            understanding of the Suttas.

            Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the words
            of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that of
            the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
            right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few lines
            of the Buddha's words".

            Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this is
            first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body. Here
            the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling.
            As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and
            mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
            clinging are the world.">

            N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of crumbling
            away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on
            Sense, Ch 3, §82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away: the
            eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co completely
            agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
            even a few lines.

            Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
            completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that, if I
            am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
            ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
            been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
            corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than rely
            on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
            secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the Buddha's
            teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha gave a
            specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply it.

            Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa, dissolved
            into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know there
            is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
            whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana. And
            my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries help me
            to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you stressed
            before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
            true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
            > Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take yourself as
            > a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
            Nina.
            op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@...:
            > The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
            > beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
            meaning.

            I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I have
            done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I focus
            on the suttas.

            ----------------------------------------------------
            Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and others)
            and be online with all of them at the same time.

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            Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from Norman
            Joseph (Jou) Smith
            ICQ: 183459
            E-mail/MSN: josmith.1@...
            Secondary Email: s351543@...
            Home or V-mail: +61 7 (0)500523778
            Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
            S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
            URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
            E-group: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Jou, Although you are busy with your writings you took time off to answer me, which I appreciate. See below. ... N: We had many discussions on dhamma
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 13, 2003
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              Dear Jou,
              Although you are busy with your writings you took time off to answer me,
              which I appreciate. See below.
              op 07-04-2003 13:59 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@...:

              > Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma as
              > the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have some
              > words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma along
              > with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
              > secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.

              N: We had many discussions on dhamma study group, dsg@yahoogroups.com about
              the Abh, the commentaries, their sources, their value. It is too long for
              this list where we are so busy with sutta texts. If you like to see the
              archives, under Abhidhamma or U.P. (Useful Posts) you can have some idea of
              what we discuss. We try to see the discussions as agreeable disagreements if
              people do not agree.
              Jou:
              (N)< the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
              > Tipitaka.>
              >
              > Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed our
              > different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong because
              > it does not agree with the commentaries.
              N: Your approach is different, and you have done good scholarly work,
              studying older and newer forms of language. Linguistics is a hobby of mine.
              When we see more modern forms of language it does not mean that the contents
              are not stemming from the oldest tradition.
              A simple example: you stated that originally there were only two refuges, if
              I understood you well. This does not mean that we do not pay respect to the
              Triple Gem, don't we?

              Jou: I take the position that the
              > Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As such
              > he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that he
              > taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not need
              > modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I see
              > it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is what
              > I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
              > Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own experience.
              N: I agree only with the last sentence.
              Buddhaghosa used very old commentaries: the Mahaa-Atthakathaa, the
              Mahaa-paccarii and the Kuru.n.di, stemming from the time of the Thera
              Mahinda. He said that he did not add his own opinion, except in a few cases,
              which he expressively mentioned.
              Jou: (N)< I am not a scholar, just a beginning student.>
              The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates as I,
              > me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
              > scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
              > maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are being
              > humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the process of
              > identification with the five aggregates.
              N: You are right, conceit is one of the last defilements to go, at
              arahatship. We puthujjanas are full of it. When we think with dosa:"How can
              he do that to me", it conditions immediately conceit, arising with
              lobha-mula-citta. We attach to the importance of self, don't we? And this is
              what I mean by Abhidhamma put into practice.
              When I say, I am only a student, many kinds of cittas can motivate this,
              kusala cittas in alternation with akusala cittas, cittas are so fast,
              arising because of their own conditions. I like the word student, indicating
              that I am learning, beginning to develop understanding of dhammas. I am not
              a guru.
              > Jou: I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few lines
              > of the Buddha's words".
              N: Here I can refer to my correspondance with John (around 5, 6 April).
              Trying to memorize parts of the wonderful Sutta texts he gives us. See <Pali
              every few days>.
              Jou: The Buddha gave a
              > specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply it.
              .....> I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
              have
              > done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I focus
              > on the suttas.
              N: you have done a thorough literary study, I am really interested (but I am
              not a web- goer). However, we do not agree about what corruption is.
              If you have time, I would appreciate you joining dsg. In fact, I shall
              forward our discussion to dsg. On dsg list we also use Pali texts, although
              not everyone is interested in Pali.
              I also forwarded some of John's sutta texts to dsg, elaborating on them
              (mentioning that it comes from this Pali yahoo list, of course). People
              appreciate them. We try to apply them also in times of distress.
              Appreciating,
              Nina.
            • abhidhammika
              Dear Jou Smith How are you? You wrote: I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I have done that with other texts and found MOST are
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 15, 2003
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                Dear Jou Smith

                How are you?

                You wrote:

                "I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                have done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now
                I focus on the suttas."

                I wonder if you could reproduce those areas of suttas or other texts
                which you found to be corrupted.

                I would like to check them if they are indeed as you found.

                Thanking in advance.

                With regards,

                Suan Lu Zaw


                http://www.bodhiology.org




                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@b...> wrote:

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@e...>
                To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries

                Dear Jou,

                Jou: Hi Nina

                I completely agree with what you say:
                <The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                beside
                the
                > teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
                Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
                Abhidhamma, these three.

                Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma as
                the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have
                some
                words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma
                along
                with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
                secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.

                And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator
                Buddhaghosa.
                The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
                appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
                Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
                ourselves.

                Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as well
                as
                an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that helped.

                I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the dhaatus,
                the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,

                Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not address
                the contradictions within the Tipitaka.

                the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
                Tipitaka.

                Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed our
                different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong because
                it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that the
                Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As such
                he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that he
                taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not
                need
                modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I see
                it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is
                what
                I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
                Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own
                experience.

                Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the Visuddhimagga
                all
                the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about
                the
                development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning student.

                Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates as
                I,
                me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
                scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
                maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are being
                humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the process
                of
                identification with the five aggregates.

                But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next to
                it
                subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I
                find
                one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
                understanding of the Suttas.

                Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the words
                of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that of
                the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
                right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few
                lines
                of the Buddha's words".

                Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this is
                first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body.
                Here
                the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing
                crumbling.
                As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and
                mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
                clinging are the world.">

                N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of
                crumbling
                away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings
                on
                Sense, Ch 3, §82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away: the
                eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co completely
                agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
                even a few lines.

                Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
                completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that,
                if I
                am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
                ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
                been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
                corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than
                rely
                on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
                secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the
                Buddha's
                teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha
                gave a
                specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply it.

                Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa, dissolved
                into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know
                there
                is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
                whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana. And
                my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries help
                me
                to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you
                stressed
                before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
                true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
                > Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take yourself
                as
                > a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
                Nina.
                op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@b...:
                > The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                > beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
                meaning.

                I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                have
                done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I
                focus
                on the suttas.

                ----------------------------------------------------
                Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and
                others)
                and be online with all of them at the same time.

                Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to the
                sender.

                Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
                Norman
                Joseph (Jou) Smith
                ICQ: 183459
                E-mail/MSN: josmith.1@b...
                Secondary Email: s351543@s...
                Home or V-mail: +61 7 (0)500523778
                Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
                S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
                URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
                E-group: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
              • paulocuana
                Dear Nina, I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of Mr. Smith s work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples? Thanks, Paul O
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 25, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Nina,

                  I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of
                  Mr. Smith's work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples?

                  Thanks,
                  Paul O Cuana
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Jou Smith
                  >
                  > How are you?
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  >
                  > "I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                  > have done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So
                  now
                  > I focus on the suttas."
                  >
                  > I wonder if you could reproduce those areas of suttas or other
                  texts
                  > which you found to be corrupted.
                  >
                  > I would like to check them if they are indeed as you found.
                  >
                  > Thanking in advance.
                  >
                  > With regards,
                  >
                  > Suan Lu Zaw
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.bodhiology.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@e...>
                  > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries
                  >
                  > Dear Jou,
                  >
                  > Jou: Hi Nina
                  >
                  > I completely agree with what you say:
                  > <The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                  > beside
                  > the
                  > > teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
                  > Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
                  > Abhidhamma, these three.
                  >
                  > Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma
                  as
                  > the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have
                  > some
                  > words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma
                  > along
                  > with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
                  > secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.
                  >
                  > And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator
                  > Buddhaghosa.
                  > The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
                  > appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
                  > Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
                  > ourselves.
                  >
                  > Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as
                  well
                  > as
                  > an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that
                  helped.
                  >
                  > I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the
                  dhaatus,
                  > the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,
                  >
                  > Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not
                  address
                  > the contradictions within the Tipitaka.
                  >
                  > the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
                  > Tipitaka.
                  >
                  > Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed
                  our
                  > different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong
                  because
                  > it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that
                  the
                  > Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As
                  such
                  > he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that
                  he
                  > taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not
                  > need
                  > modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I
                  see
                  > it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is
                  > what
                  > I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
                  > Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own
                  > experience.
                  >
                  > Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the
                  Visuddhimagga
                  > all
                  > the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about
                  > the
                  > development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning
                  student.
                  >
                  > Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates
                  as
                  > I,
                  > me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
                  > scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
                  > maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are
                  being
                  > humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the
                  process
                  > of
                  > identification with the five aggregates.
                  >
                  > But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next
                  to
                  > it
                  > subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I
                  > find
                  > one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
                  > understanding of the Suttas.
                  >
                  > Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the
                  words
                  > of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that
                  of
                  > the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
                  > right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few
                  > lines
                  > of the Buddha's words".
                  >
                  > Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this
                  is
                  > first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body.
                  > Here
                  > the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing
                  > crumbling.
                  > As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness,
                  and
                  > mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
                  > clinging are the world.">
                  >
                  > N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of
                  > crumbling
                  > away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred
                  Sayings
                  > on
                  > Sense, Ch 3, §82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away:
                  the
                  > eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co
                  completely
                  > agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
                  > even a few lines.
                  >
                  > Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
                  > completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that,
                  > if I
                  > am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
                  > ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
                  > been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
                  > corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than
                  > rely
                  > on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
                  > secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the
                  > Buddha's
                  > teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha
                  > gave a
                  > specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply
                  it.
                  >
                  > Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa,
                  dissolved
                  > into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know
                  > there
                  > is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
                  > whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana.
                  And
                  > my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries
                  help
                  > me
                  > to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you
                  > stressed
                  > before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
                  > true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
                  > > Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take
                  yourself
                  > as
                  > > a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
                  > Nina.
                  > op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@b...:
                  > > The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                  > > beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
                  > meaning.
                  >
                  > I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                  > have
                  > done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I
                  > focus
                  > on the suttas.
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------
                  > Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and
                  > others)
                  > and be online with all of them at the same time.
                  >
                  > Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to
                  the
                  > sender.
                  >
                  > Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
                  > Norman
                  > Joseph (Jou) Smith
                  > ICQ: 183459
                  > E-mail/MSN: josmith.1@b...
                  > Secondary Email: s351543@s...
                  > Home or V-mail: +61 7 (0)500523778
                  > Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
                  > S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
                  > URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
                  > E-group: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
                • paulocuana
                  Dear Nina, I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of Mr. Smith s work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples? Thanks, Paul O
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 25, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Nina,

                    I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of
                    Mr. Smith's work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples?

                    Thanks,
                    Paul O Cuana
                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@b...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Jou Smith
                    >
                    > How are you?
                    >
                    > You wrote:
                    >
                    > "I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                    > have done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So
                    now
                    > I focus on the suttas."
                    >
                    > I wonder if you could reproduce those areas of suttas or other
                    texts
                    > which you found to be corrupted.
                    >
                    > I would like to check them if they are indeed as you found.
                    >
                    > Thanking in advance.
                    >
                    > With regards,
                    >
                    > Suan Lu Zaw
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.bodhiology.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@b...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@e...>
                    > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries
                    >
                    > Dear Jou,
                    >
                    > Jou: Hi Nina
                    >
                    > I completely agree with what you say:
                    > <The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                    > beside
                    > the
                    > > teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
                    > Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
                    > Abhidhamma, these three.
                    >
                    > Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma
                    as
                    > the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have
                    > some
                    > words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma
                    > along
                    > with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
                    > secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.
                    >
                    > And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator
                    > Buddhaghosa.
                    > The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
                    > appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
                    > Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
                    > ourselves.
                    >
                    > Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as
                    well
                    > as
                    > an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that
                    helped.
                    >
                    > I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the
                    dhaatus,
                    > the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,
                    >
                    > Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not
                    address
                    > the contradictions within the Tipitaka.
                    >
                    > the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
                    > Tipitaka.
                    >
                    > Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed
                    our
                    > different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong
                    because
                    > it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that
                    the
                    > Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As
                    such
                    > he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that
                    he
                    > taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not
                    > need
                    > modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I
                    see
                    > it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is
                    > what
                    > I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
                    > Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own
                    > experience.
                    >
                    > Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the
                    Visuddhimagga
                    > all
                    > the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about
                    > the
                    > development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning
                    student.
                    >
                    > Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates
                    as
                    > I,
                    > me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
                    > scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
                    > maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are
                    being
                    > humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the
                    process
                    > of
                    > identification with the five aggregates.
                    >
                    > But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next
                    to
                    > it
                    > subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I
                    > find
                    > one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
                    > understanding of the Suttas.
                    >
                    > Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the
                    words
                    > of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that
                    of
                    > the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
                    > right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few
                    > lines
                    > of the Buddha's words".
                    >
                    > Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this
                    is
                    > first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body.
                    > Here
                    > the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing
                    > crumbling.
                    > As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness,
                    and
                    > mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
                    > clinging are the world.">
                    >
                    > N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of
                    > crumbling
                    > away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred
                    Sayings
                    > on
                    > Sense, Ch 3, §82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away:
                    the
                    > eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co
                    completely
                    > agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
                    > even a few lines.
                    >
                    > Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
                    > completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that,
                    > if I
                    > am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
                    > ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
                    > been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
                    > corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than
                    > rely
                    > on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
                    > secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the
                    > Buddha's
                    > teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha
                    > gave a
                    > specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply
                    it.
                    >
                    > Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa,
                    dissolved
                    > into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know
                    > there
                    > is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
                    > whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana.
                    And
                    > my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries
                    help
                    > me
                    > to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you
                    > stressed
                    > before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
                    > true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
                    > > Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take
                    yourself
                    > as
                    > > a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
                    > Nina.
                    > op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@b...:
                    > > The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
                    > > beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
                    > meaning.
                    >
                    > I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
                    > have
                    > done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I
                    > focus
                    > on the suttas.
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------
                    > Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and
                    > others)
                    > and be online with all of them at the same time.
                    >
                    > Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to
                    the
                    > sender.
                    >
                    > Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
                    > Norman
                    > Joseph (Jou) Smith
                    > ICQ: 183459
                    > E-mail/MSN: josmith.1@b...
                    > Secondary Email: s351543@s...
                    > Home or V-mail: +61 7 (0)500523778
                    > Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
                    > S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
                    > URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
                    > E-group: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
                  • nina van gorkom
                    Dear Paul, It is best to ask him himself. He has, I believe, his own website. I only had some correspondence with him, but did not read his articles and books.
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 26, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Paul,
                      It is best to ask him himself. He has, I believe, his own website. I only
                      had some correspondence with him, but did not read his articles and books.
                      Nina.

                      op 25-04-2003 23:28 schreef paulocuana op paulocuana@...:
                      >
                      > I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of
                      > Mr. Smith's work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples?
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.