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There is nothing given, nothing offered...

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  • Paul
    I m looking for a citation, I believe it s from the Majjhima Nikaaya, where the following lines are used. It s interesting because it comes up twice, once as
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 19 6:22 PM
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      I'm looking for a citation, I believe it's from the Majjhima Nikaaya, where the following lines are used. It's interesting because it comes up twice, once as a sort of sign of one who sees ultimate reality, and again as a negative when used by one who is not noble.

      I thank you in advance for your generosity.

      Paul Cooney

      "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
    • Piya Tan
      this is the stock passage that define wrong view . Piya ... -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 20 12:50 AM
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        this is the stock passage that define "wrong view".

        Piya

        On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Paul <paulocuana@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I'm looking for a citation, I believe it's from the Majjhima Nikaaya, where
        > the following lines are used. It's interesting because it comes up twice,
        > once as a sort of sign of one who sees ultimate reality, and again as a
        > negative when used by one who is not noble.
        >
        > I thank you in advance for your generosity.
        >
        > Paul Cooney
        >
        > "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or
        > result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no
        > father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
        > recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct
        > knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
        >
        >
        >



        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
        Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Piya and Paul, effectively the sentence is saying There is no cause and effect . DN2, MN41, MN60, MN110, MN117, and several others contain this passage.
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 20 5:53 AM
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          Dear Piya and Paul,

          effectively the sentence is saying "There is no cause and effect".

          DN2, MN41, MN60, MN110, MN117, and several others contain this passage.


          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

          this is the stock passage that define "wrong view".


          > "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
        • Paul
          ... Yes, I ve seen it in this context of wrong view before but I had thought I had seen it also in the context of right view , i.e., supra-mundane right
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 20 6:28 AM
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            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
            >
            > this is the stock passage that define "wrong view".

            Yes, I've seen it in this context of "wrong view" before but I had thought I had seen it also in the context of "right view", i.e.,
            "supra-mundane" "right view". In terms of "ultimate truth", for example, mother and father are seen as "social coventions".

            Thanks and Best Wishes,
            Paul




            >
            > Piya
            >
            > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Paul <paulocuana@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > I'm looking for a citation, I believe it's from the Majjhima Nikaaya, where
            > > the following lines are used. It's interesting because it comes up twice,
            > > once as a sort of sign of one who sees ultimate reality, and again as a
            > > negative when used by one who is not noble.
            > >
            > > I thank you in advance for your generosity.
            > >
            > > Paul Cooney
            > >
            > > "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or
            > > result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no
            > > father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
            > > recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct
            > > knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > The Minding Centre
            > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            > Singapore 650644
            > Tel: 8211 0879
            > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
            > Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • DC Wijeratna
            There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father;
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 20 6:30 AM
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              "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no
              fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world;
              no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good
              and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves
              realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other
              world."

              This is standard micchaa di.t.thi. If the negation is removed "atthi dinna.m..." etc., then it becomes sammaa di.t.thi. However, it is with canker's and on the side of merit (saasavaa pu~n~nabhaagiyaa)

              It is not correct to say that the above, the quote, is to say there is no cause and effect.

              It only says there is no vipaaka for the kamma.
              Its also called the kammassakataa sammadi.t.thi.

              D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • frank
              Hi Paul, Others have already answered most of your question. [M. 117] covers the 2 aspects of right and wrong and provides the citation you were looking for.
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 20 8:46 AM
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                Hi Paul,
                Others have already answered most of your question. [M. 117] covers
                the 2 aspects of right and wrong and provides the citation you were
                looking for.
                The part of your question that has not been discussed yet that I find is
                also very interesting is how you interpreted that standard definition of
                wrong view (on the side of aasava) as a supramundane right view. Parts
                of it look like it would fit right in with the heart sutra (from
                mahayana), which goes something like:

                In emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no percption, no formations,
                no consciousness. there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body,
                no mind, ...
                no nidanas of dependent origination up to aging and death, no dukkha, no
                cause of dukkha, no cessation of dukkha, no path leading to cessation of
                dukkha, no understanding, no attainment.
                (one could easily see how this fragment fits in...)
                [in emptiness], there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing
                sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world,
                no other world; no mother, no
                father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
                recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct
                knowledge and declare this world and the other world."

                -Frank





                On 2/20/2010 6:28 AM, Paul wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Piya Tan
                > <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > this is the stock passage that define "wrong view".
                >
                > Yes, I've seen it in this context of "wrong view" before but I had
                > thought I had seen it also in the context of "right view", i.e.,
                > "supra-mundane" "right view". In terms of "ultimate truth", for
                > example, mother and father are seen as "social coventions".
                >
                > Thanks and Best Wishes,
                > Paul
                >
                > >
                > > Piya
                > >
                > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Paul <paulocuana@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I'm looking for a citation, I believe it's from the Majjhima
                > Nikaaya, where
                > > > the following lines are used. It's interesting because it comes up
                > twice,
                > > > once as a sort of sign of one who sees ultimate reality, and again
                > as a
                > > > negative when used by one who is not noble.
                > > >
                > > > I thank you in advance for your generosity.
                > > >
                > > > Paul Cooney
                > > >
                > > > "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no
                > fruit or
                > > > result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no
                > mother, no
                > > > father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
                > > > recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by
                > direct
                > > > knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > The Minding Centre
                > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                > > Singapore 650644
                > > Tel: 8211 0879
                > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
                > <http://themindingcentre.org>
                > > Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org <https://dharmafarer.org>
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Paul
                Hi Frank, Thank you for that. I ll continue to look for the reference. Mr. Wijeratna also hinted at that by calling it right view with cankers . Best Wishes,
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 20 12:59 PM
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                  Hi Frank,

                  Thank you for that. I'll continue to look for the reference.
                  Mr. Wijeratna also hinted at that by calling it right view with "cankers".

                  Best Wishes,
                  Paul

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Paul,
                  > Others have already answered most of your question. [M. 117] covers
                  > the 2 aspects of right and wrong and provides the citation you were
                  > looking for.
                  > The part of your question that has not been discussed yet that I find is
                  > also very interesting is how you interpreted that standard definition of
                  > wrong view (on the side of aasava) as a supramundane right view. Parts
                  > of it look like it would fit right in with the heart sutra (from
                  > mahayana), which goes something like:
                  >
                  > In emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no percption, no formations,
                  > no consciousness. there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body,
                  > no mind, ...
                  > no nidanas of dependent origination up to aging and death, no dukkha, no
                  > cause of dukkha, no cessation of dukkha, no path leading to cessation of
                  > dukkha, no understanding, no attainment.
                  > (one could easily see how this fragment fits in...)
                  > [in emptiness], there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing
                  > sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world,
                  > no other world; no mother, no
                  > father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
                  > recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct
                  > knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
                  >
                  > -Frank
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2/20/2010 6:28 AM, Paul wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Piya Tan
                  > > <dharmafarer@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > this is the stock passage that define "wrong view".
                  > >
                  > > Yes, I've seen it in this context of "wrong view" before but I had
                  > > thought I had seen it also in the context of "right view", i.e.,
                  > > "supra-mundane" "right view". In terms of "ultimate truth", for
                  > > example, mother and father are seen as "social coventions".
                  > >
                  > > Thanks and Best Wishes,
                  > > Paul
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Piya
                  > > >
                  > > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Paul <paulocuana@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm looking for a citation, I believe it's from the Majjhima
                  > > Nikaaya, where
                  > > > > the following lines are used. It's interesting because it comes up
                  > > twice,
                  > > > > once as a sort of sign of one who sees ultimate reality, and again
                  > > as a
                  > > > > negative when used by one who is not noble.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I thank you in advance for your generosity.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Paul Cooney
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no
                  > > fruit or
                  > > > > result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no
                  > > mother, no
                  > > > > father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous
                  > > > > recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by
                  > > direct
                  > > > > knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > The Minding Centre
                  > > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                  > > > Singapore 650644
                  > > > Tel: 8211 0879
                  > > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
                  > > <http://themindingcentre.org>
                  > > > Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org <https://dharmafarer.org>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Frank, the concept of emptiness (Pali suññatā/su~n~nataa, Sanskrit śūnyatā) is also found in the Pali texts. MN117 speaks of two forms of right
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 20 4:05 PM
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                    Dear Frank,

                    the concept of emptiness (Pali suññatā/su~n~nataa, Sanskrit śūnyatā) is also found in the Pali texts.

                    MN117 speaks of two forms of right view, the mundane and the transcendental. Personally, I would avoid unnecessary mixing of the two.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, frank wrote:

                    Parts of it look like it would fit right in with the heart sutra (from mahayana), which goes something like:

                    In emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no percption, no formations, no consciousness. there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, ... no nidanas of dependent origination up to aging and death, no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no cessation of dukkha, no path leading to cessation of dukkha, no understanding, no attainment.
                    (one could easily see how this fragment fits in...)
                    [in emptiness], there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world."
                  • DC Wijeratna
                    Mundane and trnascendental Right View. The latter is usually defined as the Knowledge of the Four Ariyan Truths . The There is what is given ... (atthi
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 20 9:38 PM
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                      Mundane and trnascendental Right View.

                      The latter is usually defined as the "Knowledge of the Four Ariyan Truths".
                      The "There is what is given ..." (atthi dinna.m..) is the mundane.

                      Transcendental is for the Stream-enterer. It is not possible for a mere-worldling (non-sotapanna) to understand that.

                      Mere-worldlings will have to start with the mundane--that is the right-view they can understand. Sammaadi.t.thi sutta (MN 8) disucsses transcendenatal right-view at great-depth.

                      D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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