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pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga

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  • frank
    http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya What s really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the jj sound is
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 10, 2010
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      http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya


      What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
      is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
      in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?
      BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.
    • Patrick Hall
      Hi Frank, ... If you are I am too. ;-) The recording of vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ certainly seems to have a stop rather than an affricate to me. (Ie., it
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 10, 2010
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        Hi Frank,

        > What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
        > is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
        > in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?

        If you are I am too. ;-)

        The recording of "vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ" certainly seems to have a stop
        rather than an affricate to me. (Ie., it sounds like
        vīriyasambotthaṅgaṃ.)

        > BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.

        I had never seen this, it's fantastic. (Though it's a bit of a shame
        that the IPA transliterations are images rather than actual Unicode.)

        -Pat
      • Bryan Levman
        Hi Frank, This has to do with where the -jj- sound comes from . Pali is a Prakrit language which means it s a colloquial form, having developed from Vedic
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 11, 2010
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          Hi Frank,

          This has to do with where the -jj- sound "comes from". Pali is a Prakrit language which means it's a colloquial form, having developed from Vedic Sanskrit. In Vedic different conjunct consonants become -jj-.
          For example the Vedic/Sanskrit word adya ("today, now") becomes Pali ajja (-dy- > -jj-)
          khaadya (Skt, "food") = Paali khajja
          also -by- > -jj- as in kubja (Skt., "humpbacked") in Paali is kujja,
          In some Prakrits -ry- changes to -jj- as aarya > aajja or kaarya > kajja (Maagaadhii, an eastern dialect).
          In Paali Skt. aarya ("honourable person") usually changes to Paali ariya or ayira (by interchange of the letters, called metathesis) or ayya.
          So it may be that the pronounciation of the various words are influenced by the conjunct consonant from which they came,

          Mettaa, Bryan






          ________________________________
          From: frank <fcckuan@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 10:56:08 PM
          Subject: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga



          http://studies. worldtipitaka. org/audio_ alpha?page= 1&op0=starts& filter0=v% C4%ABriya

          What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
          is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
          in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?
          BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.





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        • Bryan Levman
          Hi Frank, bojjhaṅgaṃ comes from Vedic bodhi+aṅgaṃ = bojjhaṅgam (-dh- -jjh- ; it probably went bodhi +anga bodhyanga bojjhanga, ). The -jjh- is
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 12, 2010
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            Hi Frank,

            bojjhaṅgaṃ comes from Vedic bodhi+aṅgaṃ = bojjhaṅgam (-dh- > -jjh- ; it probably went bodhi +anga > bodhyanga > bojjhanga, ). The -jjh- is still a stop (like -t- or -d-) but it has been "palatalized" (pushed further back in the throat towards the soft palate) because of the -i- changing to -y- (which it always does in Sanskrit when it ends one word and precedes another word starting with a vowel as in bodhi +aṅga). So it sounds like -tth- because it is a phonologically related sound, just further back in the mouth. Hope that helps.

            Metta, Bryan






            ________________________________
            From: Patrick Hall <pathall@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 11:23:51 PM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga


            Hi Frank,

            > What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
            > is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
            > in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?

            If you are I am too. ;-)

            The recording of "vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ" certainly seems to have a stop
            rather than an affricate to me. (Ie., it sounds like
            vīriyasambotthaṅgaṃ.)

            > BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.

            I had never seen this, it's fantastic. (Though it's a bit of a shame
            that the IPA transliterations are images rather than actual Unicode.)

            -Pat




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          • frank
            Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan. As a beginner, I m looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was confusing to hear so many
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 12, 2010
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              Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
              As a beginner,

              I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
              confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
              the context.
              for reference:
              http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya

              is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
              slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .

              I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
              supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
              context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
              a Thai accent in the speaker?
              Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
              comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
              varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"

              -Frank
            • Anton Bjerke
              In addition: regional variation in second language (= accent ) goes back to phonological rules in the native language. So, e.g. a native Russian speaker, when
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 13, 2010
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                In addition: regional variation in second language (= "accent") goes
                back to phonological rules in the native language. So, e.g. a native
                Russian speaker, when speaking English, will probably use at least three
                allophones of the phoneme /d/ which do not occur, or occur according to
                different rules, in native English (palatalized d + different types of
                voice-assimilation). So I'm sure some of the experts on the list can
                easily explain this topic.

                Anton

                frank skrev:
                >
                > Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                > As a beginner,
                >
                > I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                > confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                > the context.
                > for reference:
                > http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya
                > <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya>
                >
                >
                > is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                > slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                >
                > I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                > supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                > context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                > a Thai accent in the speaker?
                > Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                > comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                > varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                >
                > -Frank
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10 07:35:00
                >
                >
              • frank
                Thanks Bryan, I understand it a little better now, but still fuzzy on one thing. Let me ask my question in a slightly different way. I m a beginner trying to
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 13, 2010
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                  Thanks Bryan,
                  I understand it a little better now, but still fuzzy on one thing.
                  Let me ask my question in a slightly different way. I'm a beginner
                  trying to speak the pali word "viriyabojjhanga". I go to the audio
                  dictionary to look it up, and I hear 4 different pronunciations. Which
                  of the 4 "j" sounds should I be imitating when I speak the word? Which
                  "j" sound is the preferred way?

                  http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya

                  vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ

                  vīriyasambojjhaṅgaratanassa

                  vīriyasambojjhaṅgasampayuttā

                  vīriyasambojjhaṅgo

                  On 2/12/2010 10:29 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Frank,
                  >
                  > bojjhaṅgaṃ comes from Vedic bodhi+aṅgaṃ = bojjhaṅgam (-dh- > -jjh- ;
                  > it probably went bodhi +anga > bodhyanga > bojjhanga, ). The -jjh- is
                  > still a stop (like -t- or -d-) but it has been "palatalized" (pushed
                  > further back in the throat towards the soft palate) because of the -i-
                  > changing to -y- (which it always does in Sanskrit when it ends one
                  > word and precedes another word starting with a vowel as in bodhi
                  > +aṅga). So it sounds like -tth- because it is a phonologically related
                  > sound, just further back in the mouth. Hope that helps.
                  >
                  > Metta, Bryan
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Patrick Hall <pathall@... <mailto:pathall%40gmail.com>>
                  > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 11:23:51 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga
                  >
                  > Hi Frank,
                  >
                  > > What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
                  > > is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
                  > > in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?
                  >
                  > If you are I am too. ;-)
                  >
                  > The recording of "vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ" certainly seems to have a stop
                  > rather than an affricate to me. (Ie., it sounds like
                  > vīriyasambotthaṅgaṃ.)
                  >
                  > > BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.
                  >
                  > I had never seen this, it's fantastic. (Though it's a bit of a shame
                  > that the IPA transliterations are images rather than actual Unicode.)
                  >
                  > -Pat
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet
                  > Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at
                  > http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
                  > <http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/>
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Anton Bjerke
                  Dear Frank, Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 13, 2010
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                    Dear Frank,

                    Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your
                    guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                    absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I
                    can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very
                    logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.
                    So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"
                    alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription
                    on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a
                    kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English <judge>).
                    By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of
                    Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest in Buddhist
                    thought and language in a broad sense.

                    Best wishes,
                    Anton Bjerke


                    frank skrev:
                    >
                    > Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                    > As a beginner,
                    >
                    > I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                    > confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                    > the context.
                    > for reference:
                    > http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya
                    > <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya>
                    >
                    >
                    > is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                    > slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                    >
                    > I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                    > supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                    > context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                    > a Thai accent in the speaker?
                    > Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                    > comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                    > varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                    >
                    > -Frank
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10 07:35:00
                    >
                    >
                  • James Whelan
                    Dear All, Anton is entirely right that these are no more than regional variations without semantic other significance. Another point is that many speakers -
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                      Dear All,

                      Anton is entirely right that these are no more than regional variations
                      without semantic other significance.

                      Another point is that many speakers - including Thai and English - find it
                      difficult to enunciate a voiced aspirate. That is to say, we can do /d/ and
                      /j/ easily and more or less correctly, but when we try to say /dh/ or /jh/
                      it tends to come out as /th/ and /ch/, or we leave a short gap between the
                      two elements, making it sound like a /d/ followed by a very short vowel,
                      then the /h/. As far as I know - and comments and corrections will be
                      welcomed - nowadays only native speakers of northern Indian languages
                      descended from the Prakrits (i.e. Hindi, Marathi, Bengali etc.) can do it
                      entirely naturally. (Maybe Sinhalese too?) Incidentally, /h/ as an
                      independent consonant is a voiced consonant in the northern Indian
                      languages. We know it was voiced in Vedic and Sanskrit, since it invariably
                      behaves as a voiced consonant in sandhi. It still is in modern Hindi.

                      Metta,
                      James Whelan

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anton
                      Bjerke
                      Sent: 14 February 2010 06:48
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga

                      Dear Frank,

                      Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your
                      guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                      absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I
                      can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very
                      logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.
                      So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"
                      alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription
                      on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a
                      kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English <judge>).
                      By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of
                      Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest in Buddhist
                      thought and language in a broad sense.

                      Best wishes,
                      Anton Bjerke


                      frank skrev:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                      > As a beginner,
                      >
                      > I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                      > confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                      > the context.
                      > for reference:
                      >
                      http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%
                      ABriya
                      >
                      <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4
                      %ABriya>
                      >
                      >
                      > is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                      > slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                      >
                      > I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                      > supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                      > context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                      > a Thai accent in the speaker?
                      > Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                      > comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                      > varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                      >
                      > -Frank
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10
                      07:35:00
                      >
                      >


                      ------------------------------------

                      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                      Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                      [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                      [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                      [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
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                    • James Whelan
                      Sorry - I should have said ... semantic or other significance . Dear All, Anton is entirely right that these are no more than regional variations without
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                        Sorry - I should have said '... semantic or other significance'.

                        Dear All,

                        Anton is entirely right that these are no more than regional variations
                        without semantic other significance.

                        Another point is that many speakers - including Thai and English - find it
                        difficult to enunciate a voiced aspirate. That is to say, we can do /d/ and
                        /j/ easily and more or less correctly, but when we try to say /dh/ or /jh/
                        it tends to come out as /th/ and /ch/, or we leave a short gap between the
                        two elements, making it sound like a /d/ followed by a very short vowel,
                        then the /h/. As far as I know - and comments and corrections will be
                        welcomed - nowadays only native speakers of northern Indian languages
                        descended from the Prakrits (i.e. Hindi, Marathi, Bengali etc.) can do it
                        entirely naturally. (Maybe Sinhalese too?) Incidentally, /h/ as an
                        independent consonant is a voiced consonant in the northern Indian
                        languages. We know it was voiced in Vedic and Sanskrit, since it invariably
                        behaves as a voiced consonant in sandhi. It still is in modern Hindi.

                        Metta,
                        James Whelan

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                        [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                        Anton
                        Bjerke
                        Sent: 14 February 2010 06:48
                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga

                        Dear Frank,

                        Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your
                        guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                        absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I
                        can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very
                        logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.
                        So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"
                        alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription
                        on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a
                        kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English <judge>).
                        By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of
                        Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest in Buddhist
                        thought and language in a broad sense.

                        Best wishes,
                        Anton Bjerke

                        frank skrev:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                        > As a beginner,
                        >
                        > I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                        > confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                        > the context.
                        > for reference:
                        >
                        http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1
                        <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4
                        %25> &op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%
                        ABriya
                        >
                        <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1
                        <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4
                        > &op0=starts&filter0=v%C4
                        %ABriya>
                        >
                        >
                        > is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                        > slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                        >
                        > I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                        > supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                        > context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                        > a Thai accent in the speaker?
                        > Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                        > comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                        > varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                        >
                        > -Frank
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10
                        07:35:00
                        >
                        >

                        ------------------------------------

                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                        Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                        [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                        [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                        [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                        [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                        only.Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gunnar Gällmo
                        ... Is your mother-tongue Finnish or Swedish? Your name seems to indicate the latter, but you never know. Anyhow, Non-Indoeuropean Finnish - like Pali, but
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                          --- Den sön 2010-02-14 skrev Anton Bjerke <anton_bjerke@...>:

                          > By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a
                          > Phd-student of
                          > Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest
                          > in Buddhist
                          > thought and language in a broad sense.

                          Is your mother-tongue Finnish or Swedish? Your name seems to indicate the latter, but you never know.

                          Anyhow, Non-Indoeuropean Finnish - like Pali, but unlike modern Indoeuropean Swedish - still makes a difference between short and long syllables, so Finns have and advantage over Swedes when it comes to pronouncing short vowel+whort consonant, as in "sata" - which happens to mean "one hundred" in both languages.

                          Gunnar

                          http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
                          http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
                          http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmo

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                        • Bryan Levman
                          Hi Frank, I ve been studying Sanskrit and Pāli for nine years now and constantly hear different pronunciations. Some have to do with the native language of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                            Hi Frank,

                            I've been studying Sanskrit and Pāli for nine years now and constantly hear different pronunciations. Some have to do with the native language of the speaker, others are interpretive or influenced by preceding or following consonants or vowels. I myself just pronounce the aspirated -jjh- like the g- in "George", (the vowel after the g- forces the j- sound to be aspirated). In linguistic terms it's a voiced, aspirated palatal stop, if that helps. Perhaps others have some suggestions,

                            Bryan




                            ________________________________
                            From: frank <fcckuan@...>
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 2:28:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga


                            Thanks Bryan,
                            I understand it a little better now, but still fuzzy on one thing.
                            Let me ask my question in a slightly different way. I'm a beginner
                            trying to speak the pali word "viriyabojjhanga" . I go to the audio
                            dictionary to look it up, and I hear 4 different pronunciations. Which
                            of the 4 "j" sounds should I be imitating when I speak the word? Which
                            "j" sound is the preferred way?

                            http://studies. worldtipitaka. org/audio_ alpha?page= 1&op0=starts& filter0=v% C4%ABriya

                            vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ

                            vīriyasambojjhaṅgaratanassa

                            vīriyasambojjhaṅgasampayuttā

                            vīriyasambojjhaṅgo

                            On 2/12/2010 10:29 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Frank,
                            >
                            > bojjhaṅgaṃ comes from Vedic bodhi+aṅgaṃ = bojjhaṅgam (-dh- > -jjh- ;
                            > it probably went bodhi +anga > bodhyanga > bojjhanga, ). The -jjh- is
                            > still a stop (like -t- or -d-) but it has been "palatalized" (pushed
                            > further back in the throat towards the soft palate) because of the -i-
                            > changing to -y- (which it always does in Sanskrit when it ends one
                            > word and precedes another word starting with a vowel as in bodhi
                            > +aṅga). So it sounds like -tth- because it is a phonologically related
                            > sound, just further back in the mouth. Hope that helps.
                            >
                            > Metta, Bryan
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > From: Patrick Hall <pathall@gmail. com <mailto:pathall% 40gmail.com> >
                            > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <mailto:Pali% 40yahoogroups. com>
                            > Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 11:23:51 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga
                            >
                            > Hi Frank,
                            >
                            > > What's really puzzling to me is in some of those words, the "jj" sound
                            > > is similar to a english "j" sound, in other words, it sounds like "ch",
                            > > in others it sounds like "t". Am I going mad?
                            >
                            > If you are I am too. ;-)
                            >
                            > The recording of "vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ" certainly seems to have a stop
                            > rather than an affricate to me. (Ie., it sounds like
                            > vīriyasambotthaṅgaṃ.)
                            >
                            > > BTW the audio dictionary at worldtipitaka is an awesome resource.
                            >
                            > I had never seen this, it's fantastic. (Though it's a bit of a shame
                            > that the IPA transliterations are images rather than actual Unicode.)
                            >
                            > -Pat
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                          • frank
                            Welcome to the list Anton. Thank you, as well as James, Bryan, Patrick, Lennart, and everyone else for patiently answering my question in a variety of ways. So
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                              Welcome to the list Anton. Thank you, as well as James, Bryan, Patrick,
                              Lennart, and everyone else for patiently answering my question in a
                              variety of ways. So the conclusion is I think I need to learn how to
                              read the phonetic pronunciation key. When there is doubt regarding what
                              I hear in the audio dictionary, I can check the key.
                              Lennart also forwarded me a link to this interesting site :

                              http://ravi.iiit.ac.in/~speech/speechdemo.html
                              <http://ravi.iiit.ac.in/%7Espeech/speechdemo.html>
                              As you see, this is a text-to-speech demo website. Enter your (pali)
                              word into the left box, and it will convert it into an audio file you
                              can online listen to.

                              -Frank



                              On 2/13/2010 10:47 PM, Anton Bjerke wrote:
                              > Dear Frank,
                              >
                              > Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your
                              > guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                              > absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I
                              > can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very
                              > logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.
                              > So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"
                              > alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription
                              > on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a
                              > kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English<judge>).
                              > By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of
                              > Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest in Buddhist
                              > thought and language in a broad sense.
                              >
                              > Best wishes,
                              > Anton Bjerke
                              >
                              >
                              > frank skrev:
                              >
                              >> Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                              >> As a beginner,
                              >>
                              >> I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                              >> confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                              >> the context.
                              >> for reference:
                              >> http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya
                              >> <http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                              >> slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                              >>
                              >> I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                              >> supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                              >> context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                              >> a Thai accent in the speaker?
                              >> Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                              >> comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                              >> varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                              >>
                              >> -Frank
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                              >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              >> Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10 07:35:00
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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                              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Магуба
                              Dear Frank and all, Here is another link with much information about local differences in pronunciation of Pali: http://pali.pratyeka.org/ (I think I have
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                                Dear Frank and all,

                                Here is another link with much information about local differences in pronunciation of Pali:
                                http://pali.pratyeka.org/
                                (I think I have given this link before on various occasions since I find it very useful resource).
                                I don't think that at present time there is an absolutely "correct" pronunciation of the Pali words. The situation is much like with the dialects of a living language - no one's dialect is more correct than others. I myself am self-educated in Pali and I keep to the "classic" Indian pronunciation but this is just because I have attended a short course in Sanskrit back in my days in university. Since I haven't a contact with a living tradition (except for the audio materials in the net) I probably develop my own "dialect" so to speak. If there were more people speaking like me this could give rise to just another Pali tradition and perhaps this was the way the various schools of pronouncing Pali have come into being through the centuries.

                                With metta,
                                Ardavarz

                                --- On Sun, 2/14/10, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:

                                From: frank <fcckuan@...>
                                Subject: Re: [Pali] pronunciation of jj in sambojjhanga
                                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 8:10 PM







                                 









                                Welcome to the list Anton. Thank you, as well as James, Bryan, Patrick,

                                Lennart, and everyone else for patiently answering my question in a

                                variety of ways. So the conclusion is I think I need to learn how to

                                read the phonetic pronunciation key. When there is doubt regarding what

                                I hear in the audio dictionary, I can check the key.

                                Lennart also forwarded me a link to this interesting site :



                                http://ravi. iiit.ac.in/ ~speech/speechde mo.html

                                <http://ravi. iiit.ac.in/ %7Espeech/ speechdemo. html>

                                As you see, this is a text-to-speech demo website. Enter your (pali)

                                word into the left box, and it will convert it into an audio file you

                                can online listen to.



                                -Frank



                                On 2/13/2010 10:47 PM, Anton Bjerke wrote:

                                > Dear Frank,

                                >

                                > Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your

                                > guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is

                                > absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I

                                > can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very

                                > logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.

                                > So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"

                                > alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription

                                > on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a

                                > kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English<judge> ).

                                > By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of

                                > Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics) , with an interest in Buddhist

                                > thought and language in a broad sense.

                                >

                                > Best wishes,

                                > Anton Bjerke

                                >

                                >

                                > frank skrev:

                                >

                                >> Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.

                                >> As a beginner,

                                >>

                                >> I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was

                                >> confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on

                                >> the context.

                                >> for reference:

                                >> http://studies. worldtipitaka. org/audio_ alpha?page= 1&op0=starts& filter0=v% C4%ABriya

                                >> <http://studies. worldtipitaka. org/audio_ alpha?page= 1&op0=starts& filter0=v% C4%ABriya>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just

                                >> slight variations of "viriyasambojjang" , but the jj sounds vary .

                                >>

                                >> I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words

                                >> supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a

                                >> context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to

                                >> a Thai accent in the speaker?

                                >> Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to

                                >> comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that

                                >> varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"

                                >>

                                >> -Frank

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> No virus found in this incoming message.

                                >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

                                >> Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10 07:35:00

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >

                                > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                >

                                > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                                > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective

                                > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka .net

                                > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka .net/forge/ pdf/

                                > [Files] http://www.geocitie s.com/paligroup/

                                > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. com

                                > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Piya Tan
                                Dear Frank, My monastic training was Thai at Wat Srakes (Bangkok), a monastery well known for its Pali. Muy understanding is that there is a glottal stop at
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 14, 2010
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                                  Dear Frank,

                                  My monastic training was Thai at Wat Srakes (Bangkok), a monastery well
                                  known for its Pali. Muy understanding is that there is a glottal stop at the
                                  intial of the double consonants. In Thai, there are only a few stops
                                  following the Mae Kod rule, that is,

                                  Mae Kod: endings of t th .t .th d dh .d .dh s 's .s (the last 2 are
                                  Sanskrit) all have a d sound.
                                  (Traditional Thai speakers may pronounce "cast" and "cud" sounding the same
                                  to us.

                                  Mae Kob: endings of b bh p ph

                                  Mae Kon: endings of n r l all have an n sound.
                                  (Traditional Thai speakers may pronounce "call" and "corn" sounding the
                                  same to our ear.

                                  Mae Kom: ending with m (only one).
                                  There is more, but basically this gives some idea of ending sounds.

                                  With metta,

                                  Piya Tan


                                  On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Anton Bjerke <anton_bjerke@...> wrote:

                                  > Dear Frank,
                                  >
                                  > Whithout basically any knowledge of Pali whatsover, I think that your
                                  > guess that the variation has arised due to (Thai or other) accent is
                                  > absolutely true. The Pali recordings I've heard (to the extent that I
                                  > can judge phonetically) show great regional variation, which seems very
                                  > logical, since there really are very many different peoples using Pali.
                                  > So my guess is that the phonemes /j, jh/ do not have any "etymological"
                                  > alternations (allophons), but only regional. Also the IPA transcription
                                  > on the audio site linked to uses the sign for a voiced palatal stop (a
                                  > kind of j-like d), not an affricate (like twice in English <judge>).
                                  > By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a Phd-student of
                                  > Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest in Buddhist
                                  > thought and language in a broad sense.
                                  >
                                  > Best wishes,
                                  > Anton Bjerke
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > frank skrev:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for the comments, Patrick and Bryan.
                                  > > As a beginner,
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm looking for consistent simple rules I can rely in, and it sure was
                                  > > confusing to hear so many different sounds made with "jj" depending on
                                  > > the context.
                                  > > for reference:
                                  > >
                                  > http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya
                                  > > <
                                  > http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/audio_alpha?page=1&op0=starts&filter0=v%C4%ABriya
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > is it 4 different contexts? The four words in question all are just
                                  > > slight variations of "viriyasambojjang", but the jj sounds vary .
                                  > >
                                  > > I still don't know the answer to whether the "jj" sound in those 4 words
                                  > > supposed to all sound the same, or slightly different because there's a
                                  > > context that's too subtle for a beginner to see? Is the variation due to
                                  > > a Thai accent in the speaker?
                                  > > Apologies to Bryan if your post explained the answer but I was unable to
                                  > > comprehend it. I assumed Bryan's explanation referred to words that
                                  > > varied more radically than very minor variations of "viryasambojjhanga"
                                  > >
                                  > > -Frank
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2683 - Release Date: 02/12/10
                                  > 07:35:00
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                  > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                  > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                  > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                                  > only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Anton Bjerke
                                  My mother-tongue is Swedish with a bit Norwegian, and my father-tongue Finnish, but Finnish I had to learn by myself and now I ve almost lost it again ...:)
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 15, 2010
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                                    My mother-tongue is Swedish with a bit Norwegian, and my father-tongue
                                    Finnish, but Finnish I had to learn by myself and now I've almost lost
                                    it "again"...:)
                                    In order to relate to something that has at least a distant relation to
                                    the thread, I would say that the combination of Swedish and Finnish
                                    gives a good basis for learning Pali or Sanskrit pronunciation - in
                                    (especially Western, "half-Norwegian") Swedish I think there actually is
                                    a somewhat similar way of word-intonation + supradental consonants +
                                    phonological distinction of length (yes, questionable). I guess that's
                                    why many Indian languages sound extremely funny to Swedes. By the way,
                                    'sata' is indeed borrowed in Finnish from some Indo-Iranian language.
                                    Sorry everyone for this Scandinavian-centered off-the-thread discussion!


                                    Gunnar Gällmo skrev:
                                    >
                                    > --- Den sön 2010-02-14 skrev Anton Bjerke <anton_bjerke@...
                                    > <mailto:anton_bjerke%40yahoo.se>>:
                                    >
                                    > > By the way, if I haven't introduced myself earlier, I'm a
                                    > > Phd-student of
                                    > > Helsinki University (Altaic linguistics), with an interest
                                    > > in Buddhist
                                    > > thought and language in a broad sense.
                                    >
                                    > Is your mother-tongue Finnish or Swedish? Your name seems to indicate
                                    > the latter, but you never know.
                                    >
                                    > Anyhow, Non-Indoeuropean Finnish - like Pali, but unlike modern
                                    > Indoeuropean Swedish - still makes a difference between short and long
                                    > syllables, so Finns have and advantage over Swedes when it comes to
                                    > pronouncing short vowel+whort consonant, as in "sata" - which happens
                                    > to mean "one hundred" in both languages.
                                    >
                                    > Gunnar
                                    >
                                    > http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo <http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo>
                                    > http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto <http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto>
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