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Re: Stefan Karpik article

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  • Lennart L
    Also in the Sutta-Nipata v. 424 talking to king Bimbisara: `Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato; Dhanavīriyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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      Also in the Sutta-Nipata v. 424 talking to king Bimbisara:

      `Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
      Dhanavīriyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.

      ``Ādiccā [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiyā [sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiyā;

      Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthayaṃ.




      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:
      >
      > Attention: Bryan
      >  
      > "He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is referring to?"
      >  
      > "Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 733.
      >  
      > Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage. 
      >  
      > Mettaa
      >
      >
      > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
      >
      > --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • DC Wijeratna
      Attention: Stefan, Nina   I started with the PTSD. The Foreword of the Dictionary has a lot of information about the origins of Pali. I am sure you have
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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        Attention:
        Stefan, Nina
         
        I started with the PTSD. The Foreword of the Dictionary has a lot of
        information about the origins of Pali. I am sure you have access to the
        dictionary (printed). The online version also has the Foreword (See
        under Front Matter). I will give you my opinion on some of the
        statements therein later.
         
        Here I will give you some points from the PTSD entry
        on Paali.
         
        1. a line, row
        This is really the original meaning of 'paali'. Not a
        language. paali is a word coined by the commentators.
         2. a line, norm, thus the canon
        of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original
        text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ"
        at Vism 107, 450, etc).
        This is the view of Buddhaghosa (reference) and Rhys Davids following
        him. The Abhidhamma
        pi.taka has never been considered as Buddha-word. Many books in the
        Khuddhaka is of late origin. Last book of the Vinaya had been written
        in Sri Lanka. So where we find the Buddha-word is the five-nikaayas,
        subject to my comment above on the Khuddhaka.
        For me Paali is the Buddha-word. I believe on the
        basis of internal evidence that Buddha-word is  what is attributed to
        the Buddha in the
        suttas. And those words in the Paali suttas are the actual words of the
        Buddha (historical Buddha).  
        3. It is the literary language of the early Buddhists,
        closely related to Māgadhī.
        This statement is not acceptable. There is no such
        thing as 'the literary language of the early Buddhists. Maagadhii means
        the speech of the people of Maghadha.
        4. The word is only found in Commentaries, not in the
        Piṭaka. 

        D. G. D. C. Wijeratna

        ---
        On Sat, 1/30/10, Stefan Karpik <stefankarpik@...>
        wrote:

        D. G. D. C. Wijeratna


        P.S. This is a copy of an e-m I sent around the 30th. For some reason it seems to have not been received as there is no response.
















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Lennart and all, sorry for the interruption, but the Unicode is not showing up. If you can discuss how you had inserted the text, because that would be
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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          Dear Lennart and all,

          sorry for the interruption, but the Unicode is not showing up. If you can discuss how you had inserted the text, because that would be helpful to Frank and myself, who are trying to understand how well supported Unicode is with Yahoo! Groups. Thank you.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Lennart L wrote:

          `Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
          Dhanavīriyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.

          ``Ādiccā [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiyā [sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiyā;

          Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthayaṃ.
        • Bryan Levman
          Hi DC, Yes that might be it. Thanks very much for finding it, Mettā, Bryan ________________________________ From: DC Wijeratna To:
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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            Hi DC,

            Yes that might be it. Thanks very much for finding it,

            Mettā, Bryan






            ________________________________
            From: DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 7:16:39 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Stefan Karpik article


            Attention: Bryan

            "He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is referring to?"

            "Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 733.

            Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage.

            Mettaa

            D. G. D. C. Wijeratna

            --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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          • Bryan Levman
            Thanks very much Lennart, Mettā, Bryan ________________________________ From: Lennart L To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 31,
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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              Thanks very much Lennart, Mettā, Bryan




              ________________________________
              From: Lennart L <lenni_lop@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 3:41:42 PM
              Subject: [Pali] Re: Stefan Karpik article


              Also in the Sutta-Nipata v. 424 talking to king Bimbisara:

              `Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
              Dhanavī riyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.

              ``Ādicc& #257; [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiy&# 257; [sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiy&# 257;;

              Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthaya& #7747;.

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Attention: Bryan
              >
              > "He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is referring to?"
              >
              > "Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 733.
              >
              > Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage.
              >
              > Mettaa
              >
              >
              > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
              >
              > --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@ ...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





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            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear DC and friends, before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages, please take note of the following: If unsure
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                Dear DC and friends,

                before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages, please take note of the following:

                If unsure whether a Pali passage is in Unicode, please convert to Velthuis before posting to the group.

                Thank you.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote:

                 2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear friends, pardon me. I meant chunks of illegible Pali passages . metta, Yong Peng. ... before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                  Dear friends,

                  pardon me. I meant "chunks of illegible Pali passages".

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                  before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages, please take note of the following:

                  If unsure whether a Pali passage is in Unicode, please convert to Velthuis before posting to the group.

                  >  2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).
                • DC Wijeratna
                  Attention: Yong Peng    2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary;
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                    Attention: Yong Peng
                     
                    " 2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).".
                    There are two Paali words here. They are there because it is a quote from the PTSD.
                    ------------------------------
                    "before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages, please take note of the following:"
                     
                    What 'dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages'. are you referring to?
                    ----------------------------------------
                     


                    D. G. D. C. Wijeratna

                    --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:





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                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear DC, thanks for your info, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                      Dear DC,
                      thanks for your info,
                      Nina.
                      Op 1-feb-2010, om 5:19 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

                      > Attention:
                      > Stefan, Nina
                      >
                      > I started with the PTSD. The Foreword of the Dictionary has a lot of
                      > information about the origins of Pali.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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