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Re: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 16.

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  • DC Wijeratna
    Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the detailed response. Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later. ... I would appreciate it very much Mettaa,
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 7, 2010
      Dear Nina,

      Thank you very much for the detailed response.

      Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later.
      However, if you can give your thoughts on:
      > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
      > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

      I would appreciate it very much

      Mettaa,
       D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear DC, ... N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the same time.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
        Dear DC,
        Op 7-jan-2010, om 9:47 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

        > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
        > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

        --------
        N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At
        rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the
        same time. Whatever arises because of conditions has to fall away, it
        is dukkha. Being in the cycle of birth and death is dukkha.
        The development of the eightfold Path leads to liberation from the
        cycle and when arahatship is reached ignorance and clinging have been
        eradicated. After the final passing away of the arahat there will not
        be anymore arising of naama and ruupa at rebirth, this is the ceasing
        (nirodha) of conditioned dhammas.
        ----------
        In several suttas the exposition of the Dependent Origination and the
        four Truths are combined and different classifications are possible.
        Venerable Bodhi writes : <It will be noted that, as the twelvefold
        formula accounts for the
        origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of
        the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III,61,
        i,177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full as
        explanations of these two truths.>

        We read in A, Book of the Threes, Ch VII. § 61: <Conditioned by
        ignorance the activities comes to be...This, monks, is called 'The
        ariyan truth of the arising of Ill'. >
        We then read about the ending of ignorance, and that this is the
        third noble truth, 'the making Ill to cease'.

        -------
        (Book of the Threes, A I, 176):
        -------
        Again, In Vis. Ch XVII, 300, the links that were classified as a
        fivefold cause (ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
        volition which is kamma-process becoming and the links that were
        classified as a fivefold fruit: rebirth-linking, which is
        'consciousness', descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality-
        materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense base', contact and feeling.
        Those classified as cause are here called the second truth, the
        origin of dukkha, and those classified as result are here called the
        first truth, dukkha.
        So long as there is birth one continues in the cycle and this is
        dukkha. This is all brought about by ignorance, kamma-formations and
        the other links which are causes.
        ****
        Nina.


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      • DC Wijeratna
        Dear Nina, This is what I meant. The famous expression under discussion is: ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m . In
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
          Dear Nina,

          This is what I meant.
          The famous expression under discussion is: "ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m". In dhammacakkappavattana sutta.
          I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
          DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so then what happens to dhamma then?

          > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
          > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

          --------
          DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
          > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
          N: In this context, yes.
          DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
          -----------
          N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
          If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?

          (D. G. D. C. Wijeratna)




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        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear DC, ... N: Dhamma could here be nature or law . It is niyama, a fixed law that what arises has to fall away. ... In different contexts different ways
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 10, 2010
            Dear DC,
            Op 9-jan-2010, om 18:03 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

            > I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
            > DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so
            > then what happens to dhamma then?
            -------
            N: Dhamma could here be 'nature' or 'law'. It is niyama, a fixed law
            that what arises has to fall away.
            -------
            >
            > > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
            > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
            >
            > --------
            > DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth
            > and
            > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
            > N: In this context, yes.
            > DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
            > -----------
            > N: There are so many aspects to the four truths and the dependent
            > origination and they are in the suttas intertwined. I gave examples
            > in my last post to you. The text commented on by Ven. Bodhi.
            In different contexts different ways of explaining.
            --------

            > N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
            > DC: If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?
            -------
            N: It is dukkha that naama and ruupa arise at rebirth. To be freed
            from this arising is best. That means the end to the cycle.
            >

            > as to: dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti, sorry, but I do not know to
            > what text you refer.
            Nina.





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