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Re: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 16.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear DC, ... N: Strictly: for me, but I think for the sake of the English, John translated it as in me. (I mostly follow his translation). Also Piya:
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 6, 2010
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      Dear DC,
      Op 4-jan-2010, om 18:41 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

      > 1) Why do you tranlate 'me' as 'in me'? 'In me would be locative.
      > "me' is usually, instrumental, dat, or gen.
      ------
      N: Strictly: for me, but I think for the sake of the English, John
      translated it as in me. (I mostly follow his translation). Also Piya:
      <The knowledge and vision arose in me>
      ------
      > (2) You translate dhammacakkhu as 'eye of dhamma'. Later on you
      > change it to 'vision of dhamma'. The two words 'eye' and 'vision'
      > could be related but they are two different things. It would be
      > better to be consistent, I think.Most probably dhamma-eye would
      > emphasize the technical nature of the word.
      ------
      N: Dassana.m: vision. The meaning of eye of Dhamma will be elaborated
      on shortly later on in the commentary. Dassana.m: seeing or vision.
      ---------

      > (3) This is quite complex. Let me first say that I am not sure why
      > I say, except it is a gut feeling.
      > I refer to the translation of "ya.m ki~nci samudayadhamma. m,
      > sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman". You have translated this as:
      > "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation".
      > I can't find anything wrong with that.
      > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
      > nirodhadhamma.m to the the 3rd noble truth.
      ------
      N: This is deep in meaning, it refers to the Dependent Origination.
      We find a similar expression also after each section of the
      Satipa.t.thaanasutta:samudayavayadhammaanupassii. Its co. gives us a
      clue (The Way of Mindfulness, Soma Thera):

      <Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also
      dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution
      should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the
      words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be
      through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of
      conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality.".....

      In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality
      through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of
      the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth
      [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the
      aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to
      be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the
      dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving,
      karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of
      vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana].

      Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The
      sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution
      [bhanga sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. >

      One can realize the momentary arising and falling away of dhammas,
      and one can also realize arising and passing away by way of direct
      understanding of conditions as explained in the D.O. So long as there
      is ignorance, the first link of the D.O. ,there will be the arising
      of dhammas in the cycle. This is dukkha.
      I cannot go into this more, time is limited since I have to finish
      things before a break I will take in a few weeks.
      ------
      Mara: has many meanings: it can mean the personification of evil,
      like 'devil', but also there is kilesa mara, dukkha mara, death. All
      that is dukkha and leads to dukkha is mara.
      -------
      Nina.

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    • DC Wijeratna
      Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the detailed response. Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later. ... I would appreciate it very much Mettaa,
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 7, 2010
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        Dear Nina,

        Thank you very much for the detailed response.

        Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later.
        However, if you can give your thoughts on:
        > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
        > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

        I would appreciate it very much

        Mettaa,
         D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear DC, ... N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the same time.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
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          Dear DC,
          Op 7-jan-2010, om 9:47 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

          > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
          > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

          --------
          N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At
          rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the
          same time. Whatever arises because of conditions has to fall away, it
          is dukkha. Being in the cycle of birth and death is dukkha.
          The development of the eightfold Path leads to liberation from the
          cycle and when arahatship is reached ignorance and clinging have been
          eradicated. After the final passing away of the arahat there will not
          be anymore arising of naama and ruupa at rebirth, this is the ceasing
          (nirodha) of conditioned dhammas.
          ----------
          In several suttas the exposition of the Dependent Origination and the
          four Truths are combined and different classifications are possible.
          Venerable Bodhi writes : <It will be noted that, as the twelvefold
          formula accounts for the
          origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of
          the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III,61,
          i,177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full as
          explanations of these two truths.>

          We read in A, Book of the Threes, Ch VII. § 61: <Conditioned by
          ignorance the activities comes to be...This, monks, is called 'The
          ariyan truth of the arising of Ill'. >
          We then read about the ending of ignorance, and that this is the
          third noble truth, 'the making Ill to cease'.

          -------
          (Book of the Threes, A I, 176):
          -------
          Again, In Vis. Ch XVII, 300, the links that were classified as a
          fivefold cause (ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
          volition which is kamma-process becoming and the links that were
          classified as a fivefold fruit: rebirth-linking, which is
          'consciousness', descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality-
          materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense base', contact and feeling.
          Those classified as cause are here called the second truth, the
          origin of dukkha, and those classified as result are here called the
          first truth, dukkha.
          So long as there is birth one continues in the cycle and this is
          dukkha. This is all brought about by ignorance, kamma-formations and
          the other links which are causes.
          ****
          Nina.


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        • DC Wijeratna
          Dear Nina, This is what I meant. The famous expression under discussion is: ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m . In
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
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            Dear Nina,

            This is what I meant.
            The famous expression under discussion is: "ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m". In dhammacakkappavattana sutta.
            I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
            DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so then what happens to dhamma then?

            > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
            > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

            --------
            DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
            > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
            N: In this context, yes.
            DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
            -----------
            N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
            If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?

            (D. G. D. C. Wijeratna)




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          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear DC, ... N: Dhamma could here be nature or law . It is niyama, a fixed law that what arises has to fall away. ... In different contexts different ways
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 10, 2010
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              Dear DC,
              Op 9-jan-2010, om 18:03 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

              > I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
              > DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so
              > then what happens to dhamma then?
              -------
              N: Dhamma could here be 'nature' or 'law'. It is niyama, a fixed law
              that what arises has to fall away.
              -------
              >
              > > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
              > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
              >
              > --------
              > DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth
              > and
              > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
              > N: In this context, yes.
              > DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
              > -----------
              > N: There are so many aspects to the four truths and the dependent
              > origination and they are in the suttas intertwined. I gave examples
              > in my last post to you. The text commented on by Ven. Bodhi.
              In different contexts different ways of explaining.
              --------

              > N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
              > DC: If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?
              -------
              N: It is dukkha that naama and ruupa arise at rebirth. To be freed
              from this arising is best. That means the end to the cycle.
              >

              > as to: dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti, sorry, but I do not know to
              > what text you refer.
              Nina.





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