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[Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 16.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear friends, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 16 ... ~naa.na~nca pana me dassana.m udapaadi - akuppaa me vimutti, aya.m antimaa jaati, natth idaani
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 4, 2010
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      Dear friends,

      Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 16
      ----------
      ~naa.na~nca pana me dassana.m udapaadi - 'akuppaa me vimutti, aya.m
      antimaa jaati, natth'idaani punabbhavo'"ti.
      Idamavoca Bhagavaa. Attamanaa pa~ncavaggiyaa bhikkhuu Bhagavato
      bhaasita.m abhinandunti.
      Imasmi~nca pana veyyaakara.nasmi.m bha~n~namaane aayasmato
      Ko.n.da~n~nassa viraja.m viitamala.m dhammacakkhu.m udapaadi - "ya.m
      ki~nci samudayadhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman"ti.
      ----------
      ~naa.na~n/ca/ pana/ me/ dassana.m/ udapaadi/
      /knowledge/ and/ then/ in me/ vision/ arose/

      'akuppaa/ me/ vimutti/, aya.m/ antimaa/ jaati/,
      'unshakable/ in me /liberation/, this/ last/ birth/,

      natthi/ 'idaani/ puna/bbhavo/'"ti.
      there is not/ now/ again /life/
      ---------
      The knowledge and vision then arose in me - 'Unshakable is liberation
      in me, this is my last birth, now there is no more existence again'.
      ---------
      Idam/ avoca/ Bhagavaa.
      Thus/ said/ the Blessed One.

      Attamanaa/ pa~ncavaggiyaa/ bhikkhuu
      delighted/belonging to the group of five/the monks

      Bhagavato/ bhaasita.m/ abhinandunti.
      by the Blessed One/what was spoken/rejoiced/
      ---------
      Thus said the Blessed One. Delighted, the monks of the group of five
      rejoiced in
      the Blessed One's words.
      -----------------------
      Imasmi~nca/ pana/ veyyaakara.nasmi.m/ bha~n~namaane
      Then when this explication was being spoken,

      aayasmato/ Ko.n.da~n~nassa/ viraja.m/ viitamala.m/
      for the venerable/Konda~n~na/free from defilement/without stain/

      dhammacakkhu.m/ udapaadi/
      eye of dhamma/ arose
      --------
      there arose in the venerable Konda~n~na the vision of the Dhamma,
      free from defilement or stain
      -----------
      "ya.m ki~nci/ samudayadhamma.m/, sabba.m/ ta.m/ nirodhadhamman"ti./
      whatever/arising nature/ all/ that/ cessation nature/

      "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation".
      -----
      Then when this explication was being spoken, there arose in the
      venerable Konda~n~na the vision of the Dhamma, free from defilement
      or stain - "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to
      cessation".
      ---------------
      Text: The knowledge and vision then arose in me - 'Unshakable is
      liberation in me, this is my last birth, now there is no more
      existence again'.
      Thus said the Blessed One. Delighted, the monks of the group of five
      rejoiced in
      the Blessed One's words.
      Then when this explication was being spoken, there arose in the
      venerable Konda~n~na the vision of the Dhamma, free from defilement
      or stain - "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to
      cessation".
      ----------
      grammar: Imasmi~nca pana veyyaakara.nasmi.m bha~n~namaane: locative
      absolute, Warder Ch 16, where this expression is given as an
      example). bha~n~namaane: bha.nati: to speak, proclaim. ba~n~nati is
      passive (Warder index of verbs). -maana: present participle.
      Ba~n~namaana: being spoken.
      -------------
      Nina.

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    • DC Wijeratna
      Dear Nina, Few comments: (1) Why do you tranlate me as in me ? In me would be locative.  me is usually, instrumental, dat, or gen. (2) You translate
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2010
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        Dear Nina,

        Few comments:
        (1) Why do you tranlate 'me' as 'in me'? 'In me would be locative. "me' is usually, instrumental, dat, or gen.
        (2) You translate dhammacakkhu as 'eye of dhamma'. Later on you change it to 'vision of dhamma'. The two words 'eye' and 'vision' could be related but they are two different things. It would be better to be consistent, I think.Most probably dhamma-eye would emphasize the technical nature of the word.
        (3) This is quite complex. Let me first say that I am not sure why I say, except it is a gut feeling.
        I refer to the translation of  "ya.m ki~nci samudayadhamma. m, sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman". You have translated this as: "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to
        cessation". I can't find anything wrong with that.
        However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and nirodhadhamma.m to the the 3rd noble truth.

         DCD. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear DC, ... N: Strictly: for me, but I think for the sake of the English, John translated it as in me. (I mostly follow his translation). Also Piya:
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 6, 2010
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          Dear DC,
          Op 4-jan-2010, om 18:41 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

          > 1) Why do you tranlate 'me' as 'in me'? 'In me would be locative.
          > "me' is usually, instrumental, dat, or gen.
          ------
          N: Strictly: for me, but I think for the sake of the English, John
          translated it as in me. (I mostly follow his translation). Also Piya:
          <The knowledge and vision arose in me>
          ------
          > (2) You translate dhammacakkhu as 'eye of dhamma'. Later on you
          > change it to 'vision of dhamma'. The two words 'eye' and 'vision'
          > could be related but they are two different things. It would be
          > better to be consistent, I think.Most probably dhamma-eye would
          > emphasize the technical nature of the word.
          ------
          N: Dassana.m: vision. The meaning of eye of Dhamma will be elaborated
          on shortly later on in the commentary. Dassana.m: seeing or vision.
          ---------

          > (3) This is quite complex. Let me first say that I am not sure why
          > I say, except it is a gut feeling.
          > I refer to the translation of "ya.m ki~nci samudayadhamma. m,
          > sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman". You have translated this as:
          > "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation".
          > I can't find anything wrong with that.
          > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
          > nirodhadhamma.m to the the 3rd noble truth.
          ------
          N: This is deep in meaning, it refers to the Dependent Origination.
          We find a similar expression also after each section of the
          Satipa.t.thaanasutta:samudayavayadhammaanupassii. Its co. gives us a
          clue (The Way of Mindfulness, Soma Thera):

          <Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also
          dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution
          should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the
          words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be
          through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of
          conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality.".....

          In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality
          through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of
          the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth
          [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the
          aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to
          be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the
          dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving,
          karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of
          vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana].

          Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The
          sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution
          [bhanga sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. >

          One can realize the momentary arising and falling away of dhammas,
          and one can also realize arising and passing away by way of direct
          understanding of conditions as explained in the D.O. So long as there
          is ignorance, the first link of the D.O. ,there will be the arising
          of dhammas in the cycle. This is dukkha.
          I cannot go into this more, time is limited since I have to finish
          things before a break I will take in a few weeks.
          ------
          Mara: has many meanings: it can mean the personification of evil,
          like 'devil', but also there is kilesa mara, dukkha mara, death. All
          that is dukkha and leads to dukkha is mara.
          -------
          Nina.

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        • DC Wijeratna
          Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the detailed response. Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later. ... I would appreciate it very much Mettaa,
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 7, 2010
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            Dear Nina,

            Thank you very much for the detailed response.

            Thre is no problem if yo are busy, you can clarify later.
            However, if you can give your thoughts on:
            > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
            > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

            I would appreciate it very much

            Mettaa,
             D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear DC, ... N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the same time.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
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              Dear DC,
              Op 7-jan-2010, om 9:47 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

              > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
              > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

              --------
              N: In this context, yes. It can be said that arising is dukkha. At
              rebirth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and ruupas at the
              same time. Whatever arises because of conditions has to fall away, it
              is dukkha. Being in the cycle of birth and death is dukkha.
              The development of the eightfold Path leads to liberation from the
              cycle and when arahatship is reached ignorance and clinging have been
              eradicated. After the final passing away of the arahat there will not
              be anymore arising of naama and ruupa at rebirth, this is the ceasing
              (nirodha) of conditioned dhammas.
              ----------
              In several suttas the exposition of the Dependent Origination and the
              four Truths are combined and different classifications are possible.
              Venerable Bodhi writes : <It will be noted that, as the twelvefold
              formula accounts for the
              origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of
              the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III,61,
              i,177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full as
              explanations of these two truths.>

              We read in A, Book of the Threes, Ch VII. § 61: <Conditioned by
              ignorance the activities comes to be...This, monks, is called 'The
              ariyan truth of the arising of Ill'. >
              We then read about the ending of ignorance, and that this is the
              third noble truth, 'the making Ill to cease'.

              -------
              (Book of the Threes, A I, 176):
              -------
              Again, In Vis. Ch XVII, 300, the links that were classified as a
              fivefold cause (ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
              volition which is kamma-process becoming and the links that were
              classified as a fivefold fruit: rebirth-linking, which is
              'consciousness', descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality-
              materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense base', contact and feeling.
              Those classified as cause are here called the second truth, the
              origin of dukkha, and those classified as result are here called the
              first truth, dukkha.
              So long as there is birth one continues in the cycle and this is
              dukkha. This is all brought about by ignorance, kamma-formations and
              the other links which are causes.
              ****
              Nina.


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            • DC Wijeratna
              Dear Nina, This is what I meant. The famous expression under discussion is: ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m . In
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 9, 2010
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                Dear Nina,

                This is what I meant.
                The famous expression under discussion is: "ya,m ki,~ncci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadha dhamma.m". In dhammacakkappavattana sutta.
                I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
                DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so then what happens to dhamma then?

                > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
                > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.

                --------
                DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
                > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
                N: In this context, yes.
                DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
                -----------
                N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
                If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?

                (D. G. D. C. Wijeratna)




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              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear DC, ... N: Dhamma could here be nature or law . It is niyama, a fixed law that what arises has to fall away. ... In different contexts different ways
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 10, 2010
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                  Dear DC,
                  Op 9-jan-2010, om 18:03 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

                  > I understand it as: whatever samudayadhamma.m all that nirodhadhamm.m.
                  > DC: How do you translate samudayadhamma? Is it 'arising'? If so
                  > then what happens to dhamma then?
                  -------
                  N: Dhamma could here be 'nature' or 'law'. It is niyama, a fixed law
                  that what arises has to fall away.
                  -------
                  >
                  > > However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth and
                  > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
                  >
                  > --------
                  > DC.> However, I feel samudayadhamma refers to the first noble truth
                  > and
                  > > > nirodhadhamma. m to the the 3rd noble truth.
                  > N: In this context, yes.
                  > DC: Why 'in this context'? Are there contexts in which it is not true?
                  > -----------
                  > N: There are so many aspects to the four truths and the dependent
                  > origination and they are in the suttas intertwined. I gave examples
                  > in my last post to you. The text commented on by Ven. Bodhi.
                  In different contexts different ways of explaining.
                  --------

                  > N: It can be said that arising is dukkha.
                  > DC: If so, what is the meaning of "dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti"?
                  -------
                  N: It is dukkha that naama and ruupa arise at rebirth. To be freed
                  from this arising is best. That means the end to the cycle.
                  >

                  > as to: dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti, sorry, but I do not know to
                  > what text you refer.
                  Nina.





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