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Re: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15

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  • DC Wijeratna
    Dear Nina, In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word deva , occurs twice. May be the deva in  sadevake  and the deva in
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 31, 2009
      Dear Nina,

      In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word 'deva', occurs twice. May be the deva in " sadevake" and the deva in  "sadevamanussaaya" have different meanings.

      Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear DC, ... N: Thank you for your observation. It is a good idea to compare different translations. I am glad you remind me. Ven. Bodhi just translates in
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2010
        Dear DC,

        Op 31-dec-2009, om 17:10 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

        > In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word 'deva',
        > occurs twice. May be the deva in " sadevake" and the deva in
        > "sadevamanussaaya" have different meanings.
        -------
        N: Thank you for your observation. It is a good idea to compare
        different translations. I am glad you remind me.
        Ven. Bodhi just translates in both cases: devas.

        I compare with Nanamoli's translation:< I did not claim in the world
        with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with
        its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men to have discovered
        the full awakening that is supreme.>

        Ven. Narada: I did not acknowledge in this world inclusive of gods,
        Māras and Brahmas and amongst the hosts of ascetics and priests, gods
        and men, ...

        Piya (<http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com> ): in this world with its
        gods, its Maaras [evil ones], and its Brahmas [High Gods], this
        generation with its recluses and brahmins, its rulers and people.

        Piya has a helpful note to rulers:
        deva, here in the sense of “devas by convention” (sammati,deva),
        ie kings. The other 2 types of deva are“gods by
        rebirth” (upapatti,deva) and “gods by
        purification” (visuddhi,deva), i.e. the Buddhas, Pratyeka Buddhas
        (N: sskr for Pacceka Buddhas, Silent Buddhas) and arhats.

        The second time deva is used it can be translated as king or rulers.

        I just have a problem when deva is used together with manussa,
        sadevamanussaaya, I am thinking of the Buddha being called teacher of
        devas and men.

        Nina.


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      • DC Wijeratna
        Dear Nina, Many thanks for your long reply. I agree with Piya. It is really the explanation given in the commentaries. But I have one or two observations to
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 3, 2010
          Dear Nina,

          Many thanks for your long reply.
          I agree with Piya. It is really the explanation given in the commentaries.

          But I have one or two observations to make.
          (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
          (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
          (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
          (4) Dhamma is well-ecxpounded (svaakkhaato), it has meaning(saattha.m) and properly constructed to give the exact meaning (sabhyanjan.m), complete in all respects (kevala paripunn.m)
          (5) Therefore it is not possible for confusing meanings
          (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake...sadevamanussaaya'. There is no word 'devamanussaaya', I think in the canon.
          (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmaniyaa pajaaya.

          With mettaa,

           D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





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        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear DC, thank you for your observations. ... N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very helpful. Some people find such texts with the
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 4, 2010
            Dear DC,
            thank you for your observations.
            Op 3-jan-2010, om 16:12 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

            > (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many
            > meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
            > (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is
            > also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
            > (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
            -------
            N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very
            helpful. Some people find such texts with the computer, but I cannot.
            -------
            > DC: (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the
            > expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake...sadevamanussaaya'. There is
            > no word 'devamanussaaya', I think in the canon.
            ------
            N: The ending aaya indicates that it belongs to pajaaya. I was in
            vain looking in different grammars for the type of suffix, taddhita.
            We know the expression satthaa devamanussaana.m ((MI, 37, A III, 285).
            -------
            > DC: (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas
            > sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmaniyaa pajaaya.
            -------
            N: That is a good observation: the contrast deva and maara, in heaven
            and hell. And then together in the human plane: sama.nas, brahmas,
            rulers and people.

            -------
            Nina.



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          • DC Wijeratna
            Dear Nina, Maara is not in hell. He is also a deva, I think. DC  D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 4, 2010
              Dear Nina,

              Maara is not in hell. He is also a deva, I think.

              DC
               D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




              ________________________________
              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 9:01:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [Pali]Q. Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15

               
              Dear DC,
              thank you for your observations.
              Op 3-jan-2010, om 16:12 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

              > (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many
              > meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
              > (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is
              > also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
              > (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
              -------
              N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very
              helpful. Some people find such texts with the computer, but I cannot.
              -------
              > DC: (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the
              > expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake... sadevamanussaaya '. There is
              > no word 'devamanussaaya' , I think in the canon.
              ------
              N: The ending aaya indicates that it belongs to pajaaya. I was in
              vain looking in different grammars for the type of suffix, taddhita.
              We know the expression satthaa devamanussaana. m ((MI, 37, A III, 285).
              -------
              > DC: (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas
              > sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmani yaa pajaaya.
              -------
              N: That is a good observation: the contrast deva and maara, in heaven
              and hell. And then together in the human plane: sama.nas, brahmas,
              rulers and people.

              -------
              Nina.

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