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[Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear friends, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15. ... Text: Yaavakiiva~nca me, bhikkhave, imesu catuusu ariyasaccesu eva.m tipariva.t.ta.m dvaadasaakaara.m
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 31, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15.
      ----------
      Text:
      Yaavakiiva~nca me, bhikkhave, imesu catuusu ariyasaccesu eva.m
      tipariva.t.ta.m dvaadasaakaara.m yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.nadassana.m na
      suvisuddha.m ahosi, n'eva taavaaha.m, bhikkhave, sadevake loke
      samaarake sabrahmake sassama.nabraahma.niyaa pajaaya sadevamanussaaya
      'anuttara.m sammaasambodhi.m abhisambuddho'ti pacca~n~naasi.m.
      --------------
      Yaavakiiva~n/ca/ me/, bhikkhave/, imesu catuusu ariyasaccesu/
      So long as /and/ for me/ monks/ /as to these four noble truths

      eva.m/ tipariva.t.ta.m/ dvaadasaakaara.m
      thus/in three rounds/ in /twelve ways/

      yathaabhuuta.m/ ~naa.nadassana.m/ na/ suvisuddha.m/ ahosi/

      just as it is/ knowledge and vision/not/ well-purified/was/

      -------
      N: grammar: yaavakiiva: yaava: so long as. kiiva: how much, how many.
      yaava taava (taava in next section): so long as. n'eva taavaaha.m: na
      eva taava aaha.m: so long I did not...
      taavaaha.m: taava aaha.m.
      yathaabhuuta.m: in reality, in truth. bhuuta: become. bhuuta.m:
      nature, truth.
      -------------
      So long as, monks, my knowledge and vision just as it is of these
      four noble truths was not well-purified, in three rounds and twelve
      ways thus,
      -----------------------------
      n'eva/ taavaaha.m,/ bhikkhave/, sadevake/ loke/ samaarake/ sabrahmake
      not thus/so long I /monks/ with its devas/ in the world/with
      maara/ with brahma/

      sassama.nabraahma.niyaa/ pajaaya/ sadevamanussaaya/
      with recluses and brahmins/in generation/with devas and humans/

      'anuttara.m/ sammaasambodhi.m/ abhisambuddho'ti /pacca~n~naasi.m/.
      unsurpassed/perfect enlightenment/completely realized/I claimed/
      ---------
      grammar: suffix -ka or -ika: for bahubbiihi compounds. Samaarake:
      denotes the relationship between: in the world, loke, and maara, brahma.
      sassama.nabraahma.niyaa/ pajaaya : pajaa: generation, world. Suffix -
      iya qualifies pajaa.

      ------------
      then, monks, I did not claim, in this world with its devas, Mara, and
      Brahma, in this generation with its recluses and Brahmins, devas and
      humans: "I have completely realized unsurpassed perfect enlightenment".

      -------------------
      So long as, monks, my knowledge and vision just as it is of these
      four noble truths was not well-purified, in three rounds and twelve
      ways thus, then, monks, I did not claim, in this world with its
      devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its recluses and
      Brahmins, devas and humans: "I have completely realized unsurpassed
      perfect enlightenment".
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -------------------------------------
      Yato ca kho me, bhikkhave, imesu catuusu ariyasaccesu eva.m
      tipariva.t.ta.m dvaadasaakaara.m yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.nadassana.m
      suvisuddha.m ahosi, athaaha.m, bhikkhave, sadevake loke samaarake
      sabrahmake sassama.nabraahma.niyaa pajaaya sadevamanussaaya
      'anuttara.m sammaasambodhi.m abhisambuddho'ti pacca~n~naasi.m.
      ----------------------------
      Yato ca/ kho/ /me, /bhikkhave, /imesu catuusu ariyasaccesu
      And since/,indeed/for me/monks/ as to these four noble truths

      eva.m/ tipariva.t.ta.m/ dvaadasaakaara.m
      thus/in three rounds/ in twelve ways/

      yathaabhuuta.m /~naa.nadassana.m/ suvisuddha.m ahosi/,

      just as it is/ knowledge and vision/ well-purified/was/

      And since, monks, my knowledge and vision just as it is of these four
      noble truths was indeed well-purified, in three rounds and twelve
      ways thus,
      -----------
      athaaha.m/, bhikkhave/, sadevake/ loke/ samaarake/ sabrahmake
      then I/ monks/with its devas/ in the world/with maara/ with brahma/

      sassama.nabraahma.niyaa/ pajaaya / sadevamanussaaya/
      with recluses and brahmins/in generation/with devas and humans/

      anuttara.m/sammaasambodhi.m/ abhisambuddho'ti/ pacca~n~naasi.m.
      unsurpassed/perfect enlightenment/completely realized/I claimed

      then, monks, I did claim, in this world with its devas, Mara, and
      Brahma, in this generation with its recluses and Brahmins, devas and
      humans: "I have completely realized unsurpassed perfect enlightenment".

      -------------------
      And since, monks, my knowledge and vision just as it is of these four
      noble truths was indeed well-purified, in three rounds and twelve
      ways thus, then, monks, I did claim, in this world with its devas,
      Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its recluses and Brahmins,
      devas and humans: "I have completely realized unsurpassed perfect
      enlightenment".
      --------
      N: In three rounds and twelve ways: The three rounds of the four
      noble Truths constitute twelve ways.
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----------------------------------
      Nina.

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    • DC Wijeratna
      Dear Nina, In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word deva , occurs twice. May be the deva in  sadevake  and the deva in
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 31, 2009
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        Dear Nina,

        In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word 'deva', occurs twice. May be the deva in " sadevake" and the deva in  "sadevamanussaaya" have different meanings.

        Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear DC, ... N: Thank you for your observation. It is a good idea to compare different translations. I am glad you remind me. Ven. Bodhi just translates in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 3, 2010
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          Dear DC,

          Op 31-dec-2009, om 17:10 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

          > In your tranlation of the Dhammacakka passage, the word 'deva',
          > occurs twice. May be the deva in " sadevake" and the deva in
          > "sadevamanussaaya" have different meanings.
          -------
          N: Thank you for your observation. It is a good idea to compare
          different translations. I am glad you remind me.
          Ven. Bodhi just translates in both cases: devas.

          I compare with Nanamoli's translation:< I did not claim in the world
          with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with
          its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men to have discovered
          the full awakening that is supreme.>

          Ven. Narada: I did not acknowledge in this world inclusive of gods,
          Māras and Brahmas and amongst the hosts of ascetics and priests, gods
          and men, ...

          Piya (<http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com> ): in this world with its
          gods, its Maaras [evil ones], and its Brahmas [High Gods], this
          generation with its recluses and brahmins, its rulers and people.

          Piya has a helpful note to rulers:
          deva, here in the sense of “devas by convention” (sammati,deva),
          ie kings. The other 2 types of deva are“gods by
          rebirth” (upapatti,deva) and “gods by
          purification” (visuddhi,deva), i.e. the Buddhas, Pratyeka Buddhas
          (N: sskr for Pacceka Buddhas, Silent Buddhas) and arhats.

          The second time deva is used it can be translated as king or rulers.

          I just have a problem when deva is used together with manussa,
          sadevamanussaaya, I am thinking of the Buddha being called teacher of
          devas and men.

          Nina.


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        • DC Wijeratna
          Dear Nina, Many thanks for your long reply. I agree with Piya. It is really the explanation given in the commentaries. But I have one or two observations to
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 3, 2010
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            Dear Nina,

            Many thanks for your long reply.
            I agree with Piya. It is really the explanation given in the commentaries.

            But I have one or two observations to make.
            (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
            (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
            (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
            (4) Dhamma is well-ecxpounded (svaakkhaato), it has meaning(saattha.m) and properly constructed to give the exact meaning (sabhyanjan.m), complete in all respects (kevala paripunn.m)
            (5) Therefore it is not possible for confusing meanings
            (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake...sadevamanussaaya'. There is no word 'devamanussaaya', I think in the canon.
            (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmaniyaa pajaaya.

            With mettaa,

             D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





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          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear DC, thank you for your observations. ... N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very helpful. Some people find such texts with the
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 4, 2010
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              Dear DC,
              thank you for your observations.
              Op 3-jan-2010, om 16:12 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

              > (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many
              > meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
              > (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is
              > also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
              > (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
              -------
              N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very
              helpful. Some people find such texts with the computer, but I cannot.
              -------
              > DC: (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the
              > expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake...sadevamanussaaya'. There is
              > no word 'devamanussaaya', I think in the canon.
              ------
              N: The ending aaya indicates that it belongs to pajaaya. I was in
              vain looking in different grammars for the type of suffix, taddhita.
              We know the expression satthaa devamanussaana.m ((MI, 37, A III, 285).
              -------
              > DC: (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas
              > sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmaniyaa pajaaya.
              -------
              N: That is a good observation: the contrast deva and maara, in heaven
              and hell. And then together in the human plane: sama.nas, brahmas,
              rulers and people.

              -------
              Nina.



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            • DC Wijeratna
              Dear Nina, Maara is not in hell. He is also a deva, I think. DC  D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 4, 2010
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                Dear Nina,

                Maara is not in hell. He is also a deva, I think.

                DC
                 D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                ________________________________
                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 9:01:54 PM
                Subject: Re: [Pali]Q. Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 15

                 
                Dear DC,
                thank you for your observations.
                Op 3-jan-2010, om 16:12 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:

                > (1) In Pali (the teachings of the Buddha), a word can have many
                > meanings. A well-known example is braahma.na.
                > (2)Ssimilary, the word deva has many meanings. In fact, rain is
                > also a deva. (devo vassatu kaalena).
                > (3) Therefore, meaning must be derived from the context.
                -------
                N: A cross reference of texts with similar expressions is also very
                helpful. Some people find such texts with the computer, but I cannot.
                -------
                > DC: (6) Sadevamanussaya, occurs to my knowledge only in the
                > expression, 'sadevake loke samaarake... sadevamanussaaya '. There is
                > no word 'devamanussaaya' , I think in the canon.
                ------
                N: The ending aaya indicates that it belongs to pajaaya. I was in
                vain looking in different grammars for the type of suffix, taddhita.
                We know the expression satthaa devamanussaana. m ((MI, 37, A III, 285).
                -------
                > DC: (7) Then last, sadevake is followed by samaarake, whereas
                > sadevamanussaaya is preceded by sassama.nabraahmani yaa pajaaya.
                -------
                N: That is a good observation: the contrast deva and maara, in heaven
                and hell. And then together in the human plane: sama.nas, brahmas,
                rulers and people.

                -------
                Nina.

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