Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Previous email resent with Velthuis translieration and translation of Pali passage

Expand Messages
  • Bryan Levman
    Full Vie ________________________________ Hi Lennart and DC, I think that was very well put, Lennart, and MN I is a good citation. It is after all about The
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 26, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Full Vie
      ________________________________

      Hi Lennart and DC,

      I think that was very well put, Lennart, and
      MN I is a good citation. It is after all about "The Root of all
      things". As you say, the Buddha is pointing out that even Nibbaana is a
      concept. In this respect I return to the Kaccaanagotta sutta (SN I I,
      17) - the world depends upon dualities. So in this way nibbaana depends
      upon its opposite saṃsāra. So if one tries to "inflect" nibbaana (by
      adding case endings - to Nibbaana - nibbaanaṃ, in Nibbaana, nibbaanasmin,
      etc. it immediately become a conceptual object - outside of oneself, i.
      e. creating an "outside" and "inside" duality which also is mind-made -
      and thus not what the Buddha meant. Nibbaana is beyond the range of
      thought, something to be experienced.

      There
      is a whole school of Buddhism which takes this to its logical
      conclusion in practice - Chan - discouraging any intellectualizing -
      it makes this statement - sa.msaara is nirvaa.na repeatedly.

      In
      the Dhatuuvibhanga Sutta (MN 140, MN I I I, 246) there is something
      similar.

      Yattha .thita.m ma~n~nussavaa nappavattanti. Ma~n~nussave kho pana
      appavattamaane muni santoti vuccatii'ti iti kho paneta.m vutta.m. Ki~nceta.m
      pa.ticca vutta.m: asmiiti bhikkhu ma~n~nitameta.m. Ayamahamasmiiti.
      Ma~n~nitameta.m. Bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m. Na bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m.
      Ruupii bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m. Aruupii bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m. Sa~n~nii
      bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m. Asa~n~nii bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m.
      Nevasa~n~niināsa~n~nii bhavissanti ma~n~nitameta.m. Ma~n~nita.m bhikkhu rogo,
      ma~n~nita.m ga.n.do, ma~n~nita.m salla.m. Sabbama~n~nitaana.m tveva bhikkhu,
      samatikkamaa muni santoti vuccati. Muni kho pana bhikkhu, santo na
      jaayati na jiiyati na miiyati na kuppati na vihesati. Tampissa bhikkhu
      natthi. Yena jaayetha, ajaayamaano kiṃ jiiyissati, ajiiyamāno kiṃ miiyissati,
      amiiyamāno kiṃ kuppissati. Akuppamaano kissa vihessati. 'Yattha .thiitaṃ
      ma~n~nussavaa nappavattanti. Ma~n~nussave kho pana nappavattamaane muni
      santoti vuccatii'ti iti ya.m ta.m vutta.m, idameta.m pa.ticca vutta.m. Ima.m
      kho me tva.m bhikkhu, sa"nkhittena cha dhaatuvibha"ngaṃ dhaarehiiti.

      Translation:



      ________________________________

      Abiding in peace, the outflows of thought are at a
      standstill. When the outflows of thought are not flowing, the sage is
      said to be at peace. What is this in reference to? ‘I am,’ monk, is a
      conception. ‘I am this,’ is a conception. ‘I will be,’ is a conceiving. ‘I will
      not be,’ is a conceiving. ‘I will possess form,’ is an imagining. ‘I will be
      formless,’ is an imagining. ‘I will be conscious,’ is a conceptualization as is
      ‘I will be unconscious’ and ‘I will be neither percipient or impercipient.’ Monk, conceiving is an illness, a swelling a
      dart. But with the transcending of all conceivings, a sage is said to be at peace.
      Now a sage at peace is not born, does not grow old, does not die, is not
      agitated, he will not lead a life. He has
      nothing by which he might be born, and not being born, what will grow old? not
      growing old, what will die and not dying what will be disturbed? For he who is
      not disturbed, what life is there to lead? It was
      in regards to this that it was said, ‘Abiding in this state of mind, the outflows
      of thought are at a
      standstill. When the outflows of thought are not flowing, the sage is said to
      be at peace.’
      You should bear in mind this classification of the six elements.”


      ________________________________


      This
      is about the nine ma~n~nitaani which are themselves opposites (except for
      the first one). When they have been transcended, there is peace. It is
      not of course that nibbaana does not exist. It is that we must not think
      of it in that way (as "existing" or "not existing") because as soon as
      we do, the tides of conceiving sweep over us and the duality of saṃsāra
      enters. So, conceiving of nibbaana, "creates" sa.msaara (or better put,
      conceiving of sa.msaara creates nibbaana, because that's how it usually
      happens - we suffer and we wish for an end of suffering) because of
      the dualistic nature of the mind.



      Mettaa

      Bryan


      __________________________________________________________________
      The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • DC Wijeratna
      Hi Bryan, Discussion of this type of topic seems to be not encouraged in this group. Please see a recent e-m by Yong Peng. What MN 1 says, my understanding,
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 27, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bryan,

        Discussion of this type of topic seems to be not encouraged in this group.
        Please see a recent e-m by Yong Peng.

        What MN 1 says, my understanding, is that for a mere-worldling Nibbana is a mere word. He cannot say anything about it. Just one more point for you to ponder: When you say Nibbana is a dual of samsaara, you assume that you know what Nibbana is?

        Bye now with mettaa,
         D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bryan Levman
        Hi DC, I just think of them as opposite concepts and neither end of an opposite has any (ultimate) validity. The true Nibbana, which has no opposite is the
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 28, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi DC,

          I just think of them as opposite concepts and neither end of an opposite has any (ultimate) validity. The "true" Nibbana, which has no opposite is the Nibbana which has no concept or word attached. It is like love.. The love which has hate as its opposite isn't really love. Like Jesus said even the tax-collectors love those who love them (Matthew 5:47) - and presumably hate those who hate them. True love is the love with no opposite - selfless, unselfish, total unconditional compassion with no ego in the way - same for Nibbana.

          Mettaa,
          Bryan





          ________________________________
          From: DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 9:01:23 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Previous email resent with Velthuis translieration and translation of Pali passage


          Hi Bryan,

          Discussion of this type of topic seems to be not encouraged in this group.
          Please see a recent e-m by Yong Peng.

          What MN 1 says, my understanding, is that for a mere-worldling Nibbana is a mere word. He cannot say anything about it. Just one more point for you to ponder: When you say Nibbana is a dual of samsaara, you assume that you know what Nibbana is?

          Bye now with mettaa,
          D. G. D. C. Wijeratna

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          __________________________________________________________________
          The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • DC Wijeratna
          Hi Bryan, True love is the love with no opposite - selfless, unselfish, total unconditional compassion with no ego in the way - same for Nibbana. with no
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 29, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Bryan,

            "
            True love is the love with no opposite - selfless, unselfish, total unconditional compassion with no ego in the way - same for Nibbana."

            "with no ego in the way": Love is a concept, or may be an emotion, that has the "ego". A loves B, C, D, ....whole world." Still the A is there. For a 'Nibbanic mind", there is no world to love. It is not possible to use any human concept to describe Nibbaana. This is what MN 1 is about. The bhikkhus to whom it was preached did not accept it delightfully (Really did not understand it). The only sutta in the Nikaayas, to my knowledge, where that happened.

            Mettaa,
             
            DC(D. G. D. C. Wijeratna)




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bryan Levman
            Hi DC, Yes I agree, neither Love nor Nibbana can be described with words. As they say in Chan, when you start to use words, you ve already gone to hell,
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 30, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi DC,

              Yes I agree, neither Love nor Nibbana can be described with words. As they say in Chan, when you start to use words, you've already gone to hell,

              Mettā,

              Bryan






              ________________________________
              From: DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 10:40:29 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Previous email resent with Velthuis translieration and translation of Pali passage


              Hi Bryan,

              "
              True love is the love with no opposite - selfless, unselfish, total unconditional compassion with no ego in the way - same for Nibbana."

              "with no ego in the way": Love is a concept, or may be an emotion, that has the "ego". A loves B, C, D, ....whole world.." Still the A is there. For a 'Nibbanic mind", there is no world to love. It is not possible to use any human concept to describe Nibbaana. This is what MN 1 is about. The bhikkhus to whom it was preached did not accept it delightfully (Really did not understand it). The only sutta in the Nikaayas, to my knowledge, where that happened.

              Mettaa,

              DC(D. G. D. C. Wijeratna)

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              __________________________________________________________________
              Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people.. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kumâra Bhikkhu
              ... Hmm.... Is that true? kb
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 31, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Bryan Levman wrote thus at 03:11 31/12/2009:
                >Yes I agree, neither Love nor Nibbana can be described with words. As they say in Chan, when you start to use words, you've already gone to hell,

                Hmm.... Is that true?

                kb
              • Bryan Levman
                Hi Kumara, Chan has a deep distrust of words (as did Buddha. See, inter alia, Po.t.tapaadasutta DN 9, 202 ). When the Chan teacher tries to explain with
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Kumara,

                  Chan has a deep distrust of words (as did Buddha. See, inter alia, Po.t.tapaadasutta DN 9, 202 ). When the Chan teacher tries to explain with language the nature of reality to his student, it is called "stepping into the weeds". Therefore they developed non-linguistic forms of teaching like the shout or the slap/kick.
                  In Koan 69 of the Book of Serenity, for example, Nanquan asks a lecturer, "What is the ultimate principle of the Nirvana Scripture?" The lecturer said "Thusness is the ultimate principle" Nanquan said "As soon as you call it 'thus', it has already changed". Later he says "Where knowledge doesn't reach, don't speak of it; if you speak of it, then horns grow on the head."
                  I am sure if I look through the Blue Cliff Record of 100 koans and the Book of Serenity (a further 100 koans) long enough, I can find an exact quote about "going straight to hell" , but in almost every koan there is a deep distrust of words - getting stuck in words gets us stuck in conceptual structures and Buddhism is about renouncing all conceptual structures, whether of the ego, the object, decisions, prejudices, words - or whatever we are stuck to.

                  Mettaa, Bryan

                  Cleary, Thomas. 2005. Book of Serenity, One Hundred Zen Dialogues. Boston: Shambhala

                  Cleary, Thomas & Cleary, J. C. 2005. The Blue Cliff Record. Boston: Shambhala






                  ________________________________
                  From: Kumâra Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 3:28:00 AM
                  Subject: When you start to use words... {Re: [Pali] Previous email resent with Velthuis translieration and translation of Pali passage}


                  Bryan Levman wrote thus at 03:11 31/12/2009:
                  >Yes I agree, neither Love nor Nibbana can be described with words. As they say in Chan, when you start to use words, you've already gone to hell,

                  Hmm.... Is that true?

                  kb





                  __________________________________________________________________
                  Get the name you've always wanted @... or @...! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.