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Re: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7.

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  • Kumâra Bhikkhu
    It s sometimes quite a challenge to translate compounds. In this case, it s pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa , which is translated below (and many other places) as
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 12, 2009
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      It's sometimes quite a challenge to translate compounds. In this case, it's 'pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa', which is translated below (and many other places) as 'five aggregates of clinging'. I remember reading it for the first time when I was very much a beginner. Couldn't understand it. Immediately the mind decided that it's beyond it's comprehension then and went on. Now looking at it again, in itself, it still pretty much the same. What does it mean to an ordinary reader?
      * 5 clinging aggregates (which doesn't really help!)
      * 5 aggregates that clings (doh!)
      Assuming it's tappurisa, let me play around a little further
      * 5 aggregates with clinging
      * 5 aggregates for clinging (I know, I know. Just brainstorming.)
      * 5 aggregates in clinging
      * 5 aggregates' clinging
      * 5 aggregates due to clinging
      * 5 aggregates from clinging

      Preferably I can offer a suggestion, but I don't have any. Can someone, perhaps with the help of the above, come up with something more meaningful and easily understood?


      kb

      Nina van Gorkom wrote thus at 16:02 12/11/2009:
      >Dear friends,
      >Pali text:
      >
      ><Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m - jaati'pi dukkhaa,
      >jaraa'pi dukkhaa, byaadhi'pi dukkho, mara.nam'pi dukkha.m, appiyehi
      >sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yam'p'iccha.m na labhati
      >tam'pi dukkha.m - sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa.>
      >
      >------------
      >Ida.m kho pana/, bhikkhave/,/ dukkha.m/ ariyasacca.m/ jaati'pi dukkhaa,/
      >Now this,/ monks/ suffering/ noble truth/ birth
      >also/ suffering/
      >
      >jaraa'pi dukkhaa/, byaadhi'pi dukkho/, /mara.nam'pi/
      >dukkha.m,
      >old age also/ suffering/, sickness also/ suffering/, death also/
      >suffering,
      >
      >appiyehi/ /sampayogo/ dukkho, /piyehi/ /
      >vippayogo/ dukkho,
      >with unbeloved/ association/ suffering/, from beloved /dissociation/
      >suffering
      >
      >yam'p'iccha.m/ na labhati/ tam'pi dukkha.m
      >what wanted/ not obtains/ also suffering
      >
      >sa"nkhittena/ pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa/ dukkhaa.
      >in short/ five aggregates of clinging/ suffering.
      >-----------
      >
      ><Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
      >suffering, old age is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is
      >suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation
      >from the pleasant is suffering, not getting what one wants is
      >suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering.>
      >
      >Remark: Included in the five khandhas are all mental phenomena and
      >physical phenomena of our life which arise and fall away at this
      >moment. No matter it is seeing, visible object, attachment, aversion
      >or generosity, they all arise and then fall away, they are
      >impermanent. What is impermanent cannot be of any refuge, it is dukkha.
      >************************************************************************
      >**
      >Nina.
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
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    • Магуба
      Dear Nina, Maybe this is not so important, but I think it could be worth sharing. Sometimes ago I noticed that in this passage the word dukkha is agreed in
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 12, 2009
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        Dear Nina,

        Maybe this is not so important, but I think it could be worth sharing. Sometimes ago I noticed that in this passage the word dukkha is agreed in gender, therefore it is rather adjective than substantive (as a substantive dukkha.m - "pain, suffering" is neuter), so maybe the literal translation would be "old age is painful, sickness is painful..." etc. which however does not change the meaning too much.
        I also think that two terms piya and appiya are also neuter (although in plural the gender is not explicit) with more abstract and impersonal meaning - dear and not-dear things or rather pleasant and unpleasant experiences. Still I don't know what the commentaries say about this.

        With metta,
        Ardavarz

        --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        Subject: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7.
        To: pali@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 10:02 AM







         









        Dear friends,

        Pali text:



        <Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m - jaati'pi dukkhaa,

        jaraa'pi dukkhaa, byaadhi'pi dukkho, mara.nam'pi dukkha.m, appiyehi

        sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yam'p'iccha. m na labhati

        tam'pi dukkha.m - sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhan dhaa dukkhaa.>



        ------------

        Ida.m kho pana/, bhikkhave/,/ dukkha.m/ ariyasacca.m/ jaati'pi dukkhaa,/

        Now this,/ monks/ suffering/ noble truth/ birth

        also/ suffering/



        jaraa'pi dukkhaa/, byaadhi'pi dukkho/, /mara.nam'pi/

        dukkha.m,

        old age also/ suffering/, sickness also/ suffering/, death also/

        suffering,



        appiyehi/ /sampayogo/ dukkho, /piyehi/ /

        vippayogo/ dukkho,

        with unbeloved/ association/ suffering/, from beloved /dissociation/

        suffering



        yam'p'iccha. m/ na labhati/ tam'pi dukkha.m

        what wanted/ not obtains/ also suffering



        sa"nkhittena/ pa~ncupaadaanakkhan dhaa/ dukkhaa.

        in short/ five aggregates of clinging/ suffering.

        -----------



        <Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is

        suffering, old age is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is

        suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation

        from the pleasant is suffering, not getting what one wants is

        suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering.>



        Remark: Included in the five khandhas are all mental phenomena and

        physical phenomena of our life which arise and fall away at this

        moment. No matter it is seeing, visible object, attachment, aversion

        or generosity, they all arise and then fall away, they are

        impermanent. What is impermanent cannot be of any refuge, it is dukkha.

        ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******

        **

        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bikkhu Kumâra, your question is useful. I also have found the distinction difficult. I consulted a conversation in Thailand with Ajahn Sujin
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 13, 2009
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          Venerable Bikkhu Kum�ra,

          your question is useful. I also have found the distinction difficult.
          I consulted a conversation in Thailand with Ajahn Sujin rendered in
          another list. Perhaps this may help.
          Op 12-nov-2009, om 11:02 heeft Kum�ra Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:

          > It's sometimes quite a challenge to translate compounds. In this
          > case, it's 'pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa', which is translated below
          > (and many other places) as 'five aggregates of clinging'. I
          > remember reading it for the first time when I was very much a
          > beginner. Couldn't understand it. Immediately the mind decided that
          > it's beyond it's comprehension then and went on. Now looking at it
          > again, in itself, it still pretty much the same. What does it mean
          > to an ordinary reader?
          > * 5 clinging aggregates (which doesn't really help!)
          > * 5 aggregates that clings (doh!)
          > Assuming it's tappurisa, let me play around a little further
          > * 5 aggregates with clinging
          > * 5 aggregates for clinging (I know, I know. Just brainstorming.)
          > * 5 aggregates in clinging
          > * 5 aggregates' clinging
          > * 5 aggregates due to clinging
          > * 5 aggregates from clinging
          ------------
          N: Conversation in Thailand:
          A question is asked (by Rob K) about why the pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa are
          given in the description of the 1st Noble Truth, rather than
          pa~ncakkhandhaa

          A.Sujin stresses that not only lokuttara citta, but any khandha which is
          not the object of upadana is only included in khandha. �Any, any, any�
          dhamma which is not the object of upadana now is only included in
          khandha.
          [She refers to the Sammohavinodani].

          There�s a question again about the difference between khandha and
          upadana
          khandha and again the comment that the difference depends on whether
          it is
          the object of upadana or not at this moment. Now there are 5 khandhas
          rising and falling away and the ones which are not object of upadana are
          panca khandha. The one which is the object of upadana is upadana
          khandha.

          She asks: �How can the panca khandha which are not the object of
          clinging
          be upadana khandha?� Khandha means the reality which arises and falls
          away
          in the past, present or future. This is the meaning of khandha, but the
          one which is the object of upadana is upadana khandha, the object of
          clinging.
          --------
          N: So I understand that it depends on the moment of clinging whether
          a khandha is upadaanakkhandha. I understand better now the connection
          of upadaanakkhandha with the Truth of dukkha. The origin of dukkha is
          tanhaa. It is actually clinging at this moment, and there can be
          clinging to the nama and rupa included in the five khandhas.

          Ven. Bodhi quotes from the co to the S.N. Khandhavagga, 57, Seven Cases:
          From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN:

          �Spk:...�With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for the
          taints by way of object; so too �that can be clung to (upaadaaniya)
          means
          what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its
          object].
          Among the aggregates subject to clinging, stated by way of the
          practice of
          insight, the form aggregate is sense sphere, the others pertain to the
          three planes (i.e, excluding only the supramundane.)�<

          ------
          There is still another aspect:
          Some ruupas of the body are produced by kamma (some by citta, by
          temperature and nutrition, for example the senses. These are called
          upaadaaniya. : Upaadi.n.na-(ka) ruupa
          (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs #653.

          Thus, clung to refers to the khandhas that are clung to at this
          moment, and to those ruupas produced by kamma.
          --------
          respectfully,
          Nina.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Ardavarz, You remarks are useful. ... N: Yes, I noticed this only recently when I rendered this word by word. I had not seen it before. I mostly followed
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 13, 2009
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            Dear Ardavarz,
            You remarks are useful.
            -----------
            Ardavarz:
            > Maybe this is not so important, but I think it could be worth
            > sharing. Sometimes ago I noticed that in this passage the word
            > dukkha is agreed in gender, therefore it is rather adjective than
            > substantive (as a substantive dukkha.m - "pain, suffering" is
            > neuter), so maybe the literal translation would be "old age is
            > painful, sickness is painful..." etc. which however does not change
            > the meaning too much.
            --------
            N: Yes, I noticed this only recently when I rendered this word by
            word. I had not seen it before. I mostly followed the translation by
            John Kelly (a few exceptions). To be more precise it should be
            painful, as you say. We are so used to hearing: it is dukkha, it is
            suffering. Now, I do not like very much the word painful, actually I
            feel that there is not any translation which is very satisfying to
            render dukkha. I would prefer to leave it untranslated.
            ---------
            > A: I also think that two terms piya and appiya are also neuter
            > (although in plural the gender is not explicit) with more abstract
            > and impersonal meaning - dear and not-dear things or rather
            > pleasant and unpleasant experiences. Still I don't know what the
            > commentaries say about this.
            -------
            N: I studied the words piya ruupa and sata ruupa as used in the
            Vibhanga and the Yamaka. At first I thought that it only referred to
            ruupa and then found out that it refers to naama as well. Any naama
            or ruupa, except lokuttara dhammas.
            See Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, The Truth of the Cause. They are all
            enumerated.

            I think here it refers to whatever is dear or not dear, including
            persons or things. We have sorrow when we are separated from dear
            persons or pleasant objects. It must include all kinds of objects.
            ------
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Магуба
            Dear Bhante, Sometimes ago I found an interesting short article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which strikes me with the unusual interpretation based on the literal
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 13, 2009
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              Dear Bhante,

              Sometimes ago I found an interesting short article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which strikes me with the unusual interpretation based on the literal meaning of words "upaadaana" and "khandha".  Here is an excerpt:

              "However, when teaching his own disciples, the Buddha used nibbana more
              as an image of freedom. Apparently, all Indians at the time saw burning
              fire as agitated, dependent, and trapped, both clinging and being stuck
              to its fuel as it burned. To ignite a fire, one had to "seize" it. When
              fire let go of its fuel, it was "freed," released from its agitation,
              dependence, and entrapment — calm and unconfined. This is why Pali
              poetry repeatedly uses the image of extinguished fire as a metaphor for
              freedom. In fact, this metaphor is part of a pattern of fire imagery
              that involves two other related terms as well. Upadana, or clinging, also refers to the sustenance a fire takes from its fuel. Khandha
              means not only one of the five "heaps" (form, feeling, perception,
              thought processes, and consciousness) that define all conditioned
              experience, but also the trunk of a tree. Just as fire goes out when it
              stops clinging and taking sustenance from wood, so the mind is freed
              when it stops clinging to the khandhas." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nibbana.html).

              I think that maybe because we study Pali as a foreign language we often consider just the abstract techincal meanings of the terms and miss the connotations which in the minds of native Indian speakers from the Buddha's time could create very colourful and vivid metaphors.

              With metta,
              Ardavarz



              --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Kumâra Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...> wrote:

              From: Kumâra Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7.
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 12:02 PM







               









              It's sometimes quite a challenge to translate compounds. In this case, it's 'pa~ncupaadaanakkha ndhaa', which is translated below (and many other places) as 'five aggregates of clinging'. I remember reading it for the first time when I was very much a beginner. Couldn't understand it. Immediately the mind decided that it's beyond it's comprehension then and went on. Now looking at it again, in itself, it still pretty much the same. What does it mean to an ordinary reader?

              * 5 clinging aggregates (which doesn't really help!)

              * 5 aggregates that clings (doh!)

              Assuming it's tappurisa, let me play around a little further

              * 5 aggregates with clinging

              * 5 aggregates for clinging (I know, I know. Just brainstorming. )

              * 5 aggregates in clinging

              * 5 aggregates' clinging

              * 5 aggregates due to clinging

              * 5 aggregates from clinging



              Preferably I can offer a suggestion, but I don't have any. Can someone, perhaps with the help of the above, come up with something more meaningful and easily understood?



              kb



              Nina van Gorkom wrote thus at 16:02 12/11/2009:

              >Dear friends,

              >Pali text:

              >

              ><Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m - jaati'pi dukkhaa,

              >jaraa'pi dukkhaa, byaadhi'pi dukkho, mara.nam'pi dukkha.m, appiyehi

              >sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yam'p'iccha. m na labhati

              >tam'pi dukkha.m - sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhan dhaa dukkhaa.>

              >

              >----------- -

              >Ida.m kho pana/, bhikkhave/,/ dukkha.m/ ariyasacca.m/ jaati'pi dukkhaa,/

              >Now this,/ monks/ suffering/ noble truth/ birth

              >also/ suffering/

              >

              >jaraa'pi dukkhaa/, byaadhi'pi dukkho/, /mara.nam'pi/

              >dukkha.m,

              >old age also/ suffering/, sickness also/ suffering/, death also/

              >suffering,

              >

              >appiyehi/ /sampayogo/ dukkho, /piyehi/ /

              >vippayogo/ dukkho,

              >with unbeloved/ association/ suffering/, from beloved /dissociation/

              >suffering

              >

              >yam'p'iccha. m/ na labhati/ tam'pi dukkha.m

              >what wanted/ not obtains/ also suffering

              >

              >sa"nkhittena/ pa~ncupaadaanakkhan dhaa/ dukkhaa.

              >in short/ five aggregates of clinging/ suffering.

              >-----------

              >

              ><Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is

              >suffering, old age is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is

              >suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation

              >from the pleasant is suffering, not getting what one wants is

              >suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering.>

              >

              >Remark: Included in the five khandhas are all mental phenomena and

              >physical phenomena of our life which arise and fall away at this

              >moment. No matter it is seeing, visible object, attachment, aversion

              >or generosity, they all arise and then fall away, they are

              >impermanent. What is impermanent cannot be of any refuge, it is dukkha.

              >*********** ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* *******

              >**

              >Nina.

              >

              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >

              >

              >

              >----------- --------- --------- -------

              >

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              >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective

              >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka .net

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              >

              >

              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Магуба
              Dear Nina, Yes, painful is not good. I just could not think out an English adjective derived from suffering . Curious - there is such a word in Bulgarian
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 13, 2009
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                Dear Nina,

                Yes, "painful" is not good. I just could not think out an English adjective derived from "suffering". Curious - there is such a word in Bulgarian and Russian (maybe also in other Slavic languages), but it is used only as a grammatical term meaning "passive voice". Which remains me how twenty years ago a friend of mine have explained the Buddhist concept of dukkha as (metaphorically speaking) existence or being "in passive voice".

                With metta,
                Ardavarz

                --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                Subject: [Pali] Re: Q. Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7.
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:38 PM







                 









                Dear Ardavarz,

                You remarks are useful.

                -----------

                Ardavarz:

                > Maybe this is not so important, but I think it could be worth

                > sharing. Sometimes ago I noticed that in this passage the word

                > dukkha is agreed in gender, therefore it is rather adjective than

                > substantive (as a substantive dukkha.m - "pain, suffering" is

                > neuter), so maybe the literal translation would be "old age is

                > painful, sickness is painful..." etc. which however does not change

                > the meaning too much.

                --------

                N: Yes, I noticed this only recently when I rendered this word by

                word. I had not seen it before. I mostly followed the translation by

                John Kelly (a few exceptions). To be more precise it should be

                painful, as you say. We are so used to hearing: it is dukkha, it is

                suffering. Now, I do not like very much the word painful, actually I

                feel that there is not any translation which is very satisfying to

                render dukkha. I would prefer to leave it untranslated.

                ---------

                > A: I also think that two terms piya and appiya are also neuter

                > (although in plural the gender is not explicit) with more abstract

                > and impersonal meaning - dear and not-dear things or rather

                > pleasant and unpleasant experiences. Still I don't know what the

                > commentaries say about this.

                -------

                N: I studied the words piya ruupa and sata ruupa as used in the

                Vibhanga and the Yamaka. At first I thought that it only referred to

                ruupa and then found out that it refers to naama as well. Any naama

                or ruupa, except lokuttara dhammas.

                See Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, The Truth of the Cause. They are all

                enumerated.



                I think here it refers to whatever is dear or not dear, including

                persons or things. We have sorrow when we are separated from dear

                persons or pleasant objects. It must include all kinds of objects.

                ------

                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kumâra Bhikkhu
                Dear Nina and Ardavarz, Thanks for responding. Not sure I m just being obtuse. Reading your posts did not turn on any light in my head. :-) I ve read Ven Bodhi
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 13, 2009
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                  Dear Nina and Ardavarz,

                  Thanks for responding. Not sure I'm just being obtuse. Reading your posts did not turn on any light in my head. :-)

                  I've read Ven Bodhi translating it as 'aggregates subject to clinging'. It gives some meaning to it, though I don't know if it's correct. What do you all think?

                  kb
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Venerable Bhikkhu Kumâra, ... N: I think this is good. Respectfully, Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 14, 2009
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                    Venerable Bhikkhu Kumâra,
                    Op 14-nov-2009, om 6:54 heeft Kumâra Bhikkhu het volgende geschreven:

                    > I've read Ven Bodhi translating it as 'aggregates subject to
                    > clinging'. It gives some meaning to it, though I don't know if it's
                    > correct.
                    -------
                    N: I think this is good.
                    Respectfully,
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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