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Re: [Pali] Re: Saddaniiti XXV: 868

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Mahinda, Thank-,ou. I very much appreciate your contribution to the discussion of Sd 868 and the time and effort you have taken to investigate further
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 3, 2009
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      Dear Mahinda,

      Thank-,ou. I very much appreciate your contribution to the discussion
      of Sd 868 and the time and effort you have taken to investigate
      further with the help of the Ruupasiddhi. I think you've dealt
      adequately with the difficulties of the wording in the sutta athough
      questions still remain in my mind about 'ekaabhidhaane'. But enough
      has been said for now and it is time to set aside these lingering
      questions for later. It does seem though that many (if not all) the
      grammatical suttas present some degree of difficulty. The next 3
      suttas relate to the personal endings as well which I have started to
      look at but here again I'm running into trouble with the term
      'tulyaadhikara.ne' just like with 'ekaabhidhaane'.

      Jim

      << The analysis of 'ekaabhidhaane' as "ekatobhidhāne kātabbe" (when a
      unified
      statement has to be made) clears up the problem as regards that word.

      The idea of constancy of tense cannot really be got out of 'eka' in
      'ekaabhidhaane'. I think it is a projection of the idea of oneness
      from
      person to tense. Its necessity, however, is apparent in it being
      endorsed by
      Buddhappiya the erudite author of Ruupasiddhi of the Kaccaayana
      tradition.. >>
    • Mahinda Palihawadana
      Dear Jim, Thanks. Yes, I think we have not yet hit upon an acceptable translation for ekaabhdhaane . None of the suggestions I made were meant to be accurate
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 4, 2009
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        Dear Jim,

        Thanks. Yes, I think we have not yet hit upon an acceptable translation for
        'ekaabhdhaane'. None of the suggestions I made were meant to be accurate
        translations, only broad hints at what I thought was the meaning.

        The reason why these suttas are difficult is the tendency of the authors,
        who clearly follow the style and methods of the Sanskrit grammarians, to go
        to such lengths to state a rule concisely. There s a saying that to a
        'suutra-kaara' the reduction of a syllable is as great a joy as the birth of
        a son. Packing so much meaning into 'eka' looks like a result of this
        fondness for abbreviation.

        The meaning of tulya- and bhinna- adhikara.na that I am familiar with is the
        one that is used with reference to adjectives. An adj. which agrees with its
        substantive in number, gender and case (e.g., 'setaani' in "setaani
        padumaani") is aclled a "tulyaadhikara.na visesa.na". On the other hand an
        adjective or a word doing an adjectival function, but does not agree in the
        above-mentioned manner (e.g. 'assakassa' in "assakassa visaye": "in the
        region of Assaka") is called a "bhinnaadhikara.na vises.na". Let us see how
        these words occur in the next sutta of Saddaniiti.
        Best wishes.

        Mahinda

        On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > Dear Mahinda,
        >
        > Thank-,ou. I very much appreciate your contribution to the discussion
        > of Sd 868 and the time and effort you have taken to investigate
        > further with the help of the Ruupasiddhi. I think you've dealt
        > adequately with the difficulties of the wording in the sutta athough
        > questions still remain in my mind about 'ekaabhidhaane'. But enough
        > has been said for now and it is time to set aside these lingering
        > questions for later. It does seem though that many (if not all) the
        > grammatical suttas present some degree of difficulty. The next 3
        > suttas relate to the personal endings as well which I have started to
        > look at but here again I'm running into trouble with the term
        > 'tulyaadhikara.ne' just like with 'ekaabhidhaane'.
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        > << The analysis of 'ekaabhidhaane' as "ekatobhidhāne kātabbe" (when a
        > unified
        > statement has to be made) clears up the problem as regards that word.
        >
        > The idea of constancy of tense cannot really be got out of 'eka' in
        > 'ekaabhidhaane'. I think it is a projection of the idea of oneness
        > from
        > person to tense. Its necessity, however, is apparent in it being
        > endorsed by
        > Buddhappiya the erudite author of Ruupasiddhi of the Kaccaayana
        > tradition.. >>
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Mahinda, There is quite a bit more commentary on Kc 409 one could investigate and think about that might help us to better understand Sd 868 and
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 6, 2009
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          Dear Mahinda,

          There is quite a bit more commentary on Kc 409 one could investigate
          and think about that might help us to better understand Sd 868 and
          "ekaabhidhaane" such as the Kaccaayanasuttaniddesa,
          Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa, and the Nyaasa with its two .tiikaas but that
          will have to be left for another time.

          Currently, I have some other more pressing work to do and don't have a
          lot of time left to do much research on the next few suttas (869-871)
          which are almost the same as Kc 410-412. Aggava.msa seems to be
          following Kaccaayana quite closely, at least for the beginning suttas
          of this chapter. I hope to have something posted soon on Sd 869 (naame
          payujjamaanepi tulyaadhikara.ne pa.thamo) but I don't think I'll be
          able to translate "tulyaadhikara.ne" which is connected to "naame" (a
          substantive or pronoun other than tumha and amha). Aggava.msa's
          commentary is terse and this makes it necessary to investigate other
          grammatical commentaries for more information.

          Best wishes,
          Jim

          << The meaning of tulya- and bhinna- adhikara.na that I am familiar
          with is the one that is used with reference to adjectives. An adj.
          which agrees with its substantive in number, gender and case (e.g.,
          'setaani' in "setaani padumaani") is aclled a "tulyaadhikara.na
          visesa.na". On the other hand an adjective or a word doing an
          adjectival function, but does not agree in the above-mentioned manner
          (e.g. 'assakassa' in "assakassa visaye": "in the region of Assaka") is
          called a "bhinnaadhikara.na vises.na". Let us see how these words
          occur in the next sutta of Saddaniiti.
          Best wishes.

          Mahinda >>
        • Mahinda Palihawadana
          ... The Sinhala sanne text on Kaccaayana 411 explains ekaabhidhaane decisively. Its comment can be translated as follows: When expressed as a single
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 18, 2009
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            On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > Dear Mahinda,
            >
            > There is quite a bit more commentary on Kc 409 one could investigate
            > and think about that might help us to better understand Sd 868 and
            > "ekaabhidhaane" ...
            >

            The Sinhala 'sanne' text on Kaccaayana 411 explains 'ekaabhidhaane'
            decisively. Its comment can be translated as follows:"When expressed as a
            single statement with a single verb".
            It also takes this as a "paribhaasaa sutta", a rule that teaches the proper
            interpretation or application of another rule. So does the Ruupasiddhi.

            Mahinda

            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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