Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

SV: why warrior is the best clan RE: SV: [Pali] Re: Buddhist Imprimatur?

Expand Messages
  • Gunnar Gällmo
    ...
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      --- Den sön 2009-11-01 skrev ardavarz <ardavarz@...>:

      <Buddhism is not concern with the casts, social contradictions etc. but with the elimination of suffering which is the same for all beings. This is a revolution in the psyche, not in society (society just doesn't matter).>

      I disagree.

      I think this a very serious over-simplification, that you are presenting Quietism rather than Buddhism.

      The Dhamma is concerned _primarily_ with personal liberation, but it is by no means indifferent to social matters. This is clear from the advice given by the Buddha in the suttas, e. g. the beginning of the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta, or the whole of the Sigaalovaadasutta

      Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs.

      Of course, there is always a difference between the ideal and the possible; that's why I think the utopian society described in the Cakkavatti story is meant as a social ideal to be strived for, not as something that has actually existed.

      Gunnar



      http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
      http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
      http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmo



      ___________________________________________________
      Sök efter kärleken!
      Hitta din tvillingsjäl på Yahoo! Dejting: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;185753627;24584539;x?http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/index.php?mtcmk=148783
    • ardavarz
      Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs. Dear Gunnar, I wouldn t like to rise a dispute here, still more that this
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        "Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs."

        Dear Gunnar,

        I wouldn't like to rise a dispute here, still more that this topic is a little outside the main theme of this group, but I think this could be interesting later in connection with the discussion of Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

        Why siila is considered as first while factually in the enumeration of the Noble Eightfold Path it goes second?

        Of course, everyone has a right to form his own opinion. Mine is that this kind of talk is designed for the seek of common people who are not willing to give up their sentiments. But there is also other interpretations which appeal to me more as more correct if not so popular. Here is two quotations from a sermon given by Bhaddanta Saddhamma Kittisara in Singapore about the tradition of the late Mogok Sayadaw from Myanmar (BTW, this is my favorite Vipassana school):

        "Indeed, immortality is Nibbana, deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. Therefore, the Paths (Maggangas) leading to the attainment of immortality (Nibbana) are immortal medicine. With respect to their stage of development, paths are classified into two levels, namely, Mundane Fivefold Path (Lokiya-pancangika-magga) and Supramundane Eightfold Path (Lokuttara-atthangika-magga). The Mundane Fivefold Path is composed of the following paths:

        1. Right view (Samma-ditthi)

        2. Right thought (Samma-sankappa)

        3. Right effort (Samma-vayama)

        4. Right Mindfulness (Samma-sati)

        5. Right concentration (Samma-samadhi)

        Of five Paths, the first two are called Wisdom Path (Panna-magga), and the next three are, Concentration Path (Samadhi-magga). Here, the Wisdom Path plays the leading role."

        "In this connection, it should be borne in mind that, the first two Vipassana knowledges, which sees the true nature of the ceaselessly arising and perishing of the khandhas, and which disgusts the nature of them, are still Mundane Path knowledges; only the Magga-nana which culminates in the cessation of the arising and perishing of the khandhas, and sees Nibbana, is Supramundane Path knowledge. However, the latter could not be attained without the development of the former.

        With the attainment of the three stages of knowledge, the meditator becomes a Sotapanna, one who initially enters the stream leading to Nibbana - the immortality. At this stage there arises in the Sotapatti Path Consciousness the Supra-mundane Eightfold Path, including Moral Path (Sila-magga) i.e. right speech (Samma-vaca), right action (Samma-kammanta), and right livelihood (Samma-ajiva)."

        (I haven't changed the text to the exact transliteration of Pali terms, just cited it as it is given here: http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/aungsan1.htm. I think it's understandable thus as well.)

        With metta,
        Ardavarz

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- Den sön 2009-11-01 skrev ardavarz <ardavarz@...>:
        >
        > <Buddhism is not concern with the casts, social contradictions etc. but with the elimination of suffering which is the same for all beings. This is a revolution in the psyche, not in society (society just doesn't matter).>
        >
        > I disagree.
        >
        > I think this a very serious over-simplification, that you are presenting Quietism rather than Buddhism.
        >
        > The Dhamma is concerned _primarily_ with personal liberation, but it is by no means indifferent to social matters. This is clear from the advice given by the Buddha in the suttas, e. g. the beginning of the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta, or the whole of the Sigaalovaadasutta
        >
        > Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs.
        >
        > Of course, there is always a difference between the ideal and the possible; that's why I think the utopian society described in the Cakkavatti story is meant as a social ideal to be strived for, not as something that has actually existed.
        >
        > Gunnar
        >
        >
        >
        > http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
        > http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
        > http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmo
        >
        >
        >
        > ___________________________________________________
        > Sök efter kärleken!
        > Hitta din tvillingsjäl på Yahoo! Dejting: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;185753627;24584539;x?http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/index.php?mtcmk=148783
        >
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Ardavarz, ... N: This is correct. The three factors that are siila only arise together when the citta is lokuttara, experiencing nibbaana. At that moment
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Ardavarz,

          Op 2-nov-2009, om 0:04 heeft ardavarz het volgende geschreven:

          > With the attainment of the three stages of knowledge, the meditator
          > becomes a Sotapanna, one who initially enters the stream leading to
          > Nibbana - the immortality. At this stage there arises in the
          > Sotapatti Path Consciousness the Supra-mundane Eightfold Path,
          > including Moral Path (Sila-magga) i.e. right speech (Samma-vaca),
          > right livelihood (Samma-ajiva)."
          ------
          N: This is correct. The three factors that are siila only arise
          together when the citta is lokuttara, experiencing nibbaana. At that
          moment the base of wrong siila is being cut off in accordance with
          the stage of enlightenment reached.
          When the citta that develops the Path is still lokiya, there is not
          always opportunity for abstention (then the Path is fivefold), or,
          there may be an opportunity for one kind of siila at a time: right
          action, right speech or right livelihood. Then the Path is sixfold.
          BTW I would prefer to use the 'deathless' for nibbaana, instead of
          immortality which may create confusion. People may think of eternalism.
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ardavarz
          Dear Nina, Thank you for your detailed explanation. It makes the topic more clear and specific. I agree that immortality is not proper term in a Buddhist
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Nina,

            Thank you for your detailed explanation. It makes the topic more clear and specific.

            I agree that "immortality" is not proper term in a Buddhist context. I've just quoted this passage what it was in the source - I suppose this is just a loose translation from the Burmese original.

            I also back up your suggestion to use the Pali term nibbaana instead of more popular Sanskrit one. This, even if it may sound unusual to the general public, will let us keep the specific Buddhist connotations of the word. (I think the same applies to the cognates kamma and karma.) The Sanskrit words nirvaa.na and karma are used not only in Buddhism, but also in Hinduism, Jainism and more recent theosophical sects. I have found that most people usually have very bizarre notions about them and so using them in the translations of the suttas (or even in the works about Buddhism) would cause more confusion rather than understanding.

            With metta,
            Ardavarz


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Ardavarz,
            >
            > Op 2-nov-2009, om 0:04 heeft ardavarz het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > > With the attainment of the three stages of knowledge, the meditator
            > > becomes a Sotapanna, one who initially enters the stream leading to
            > > Nibbana - the immortality. At this stage there arises in the
            > > Sotapatti Path Consciousness the Supra-mundane Eightfold Path,
            > > including Moral Path (Sila-magga) i.e. right speech (Samma-vaca),
            > > right livelihood (Samma-ajiva)."
            > ------
            > N: This is correct. The three factors that are siila only arise
            > together when the citta is lokuttara, experiencing nibbaana. At that
            > moment the base of wrong siila is being cut off in accordance with
            > the stage of enlightenment reached.
            > When the citta that develops the Path is still lokiya, there is not
            > always opportunity for abstention (then the Path is fivefold), or,
            > there may be an opportunity for one kind of siila at a time: right
            > action, right speech or right livelihood. Then the Path is sixfold.
            > BTW I would prefer to use the 'deathless' for nibbaana, instead of
            > immortality which may create confusion. People may think of eternalism.
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Ardavez, ... N: It is very good that you have Burmese texts you can provide for us. For example, the Pali-Burmese nissaya texts. Some people may wonder
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 4, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Ardavez,
              Op 3-nov-2009, om 0:50 heeft ardavarz het volgende geschreven:

              > I agree that "immortality" is not proper term in a Buddhist
              > context. I've just quoted this passage what it was in the source -
              > I suppose this is just a loose translation from the Burmese original.
              -------
              N: It is very good that you have Burmese texts you can provide for
              us. For example, the Pali-Burmese nissaya texts.
              Some people may wonder about the Path sometimes being fivefold,
              sometimes being sixfold, sometimes being eightfold. They are used to
              read about the eight factors. But through this differentiation we see
              that the Path can be developed from moment to moment, it is not
              theory, it is very actual.
              There may be an opportunity for abstaining, say from killing an
              insect. Then, there can be understanding that it is not 'self' who
              abstains, only a conditioned reality. At that moment the Path is
              sixfold, there is virati cetasika performing its function, in this
              case right action. When sound appears, there can be awareness and
              understanding of just sound, a ruupa appearing through the ears, not
              a thing or a person, and then there is no abstaining from wrong
              conduct, the Path is fivefold. Five factors perform their functions.

              ******
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.