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First Sermon of the Buddha

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Eskay, to make things easier for you: you could send the scanned copy to the Files section of our list and then anyone interested can download it. Also,
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 11, 2009
      Dear Eskay,

      to make things easier for you: you could send the scanned copy to the
      Files section of our list and then anyone interested can download it.
      Also, you could convert it to Velthuys (there is a conversion pad)
      and post it here in small sections so that we can discuss it. We can
      use both, what do you think?
      Nina.
    • Lotsawanet
      Beautiful idea Nina! Much easier! I would love to study the book with the sangha group. Best wishes, tenphel From: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 11, 2009
        Beautiful idea Nina! Much easier!

        I would love to study the book with the sangha group.

        Best wishes,

        tenphel



        From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
        van Gorkom
        Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:57 PM
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Pali] First Sermon of the Buddha





        Dear Eskay,

        to make things easier for you: you could send the scanned copy to the
        Files section of our list and then anyone interested can download it.
        Also, you could convert it to Velthuys (there is a conversion pad)
        and post it here in small sections so that we can discuss it. We can
        use both, what do you think?
        Nina.



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        Lançamento: 10/08/09 06:39:00



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Tenphel, ... N: We better ask our moderator first whether it is O.K. to have the book on the files. Actually, the Pali text and its commentary in Pali
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 12, 2009
          Dear Tenphel,

          Op 11-okt-2009, om 13:40 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

          > Beautiful idea Nina! Much easier!
          >
          > I would love to study the book with the sangha group.
          ------
          N: We better ask our moderator first whether it is O.K. to have the
          book on the files. Actually, the Pali text and its commentary in Pali
          could be added.

          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • yongpeng.ong
          Dear Nina, Tenphel, Eskay, Branko and friends, thank you. I had a quick look again through the discussion, I have a copy of The First Discourse of the Buddha
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 12, 2009
            Dear Nina, Tenphel, Eskay, Branko and friends,

            thank you. I had a quick look again through the discussion, I have a copy of The First Discourse of the Buddha by Ven. Dr. Rewata Dhamma, it is available from Wisdom Pubs website: http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/c_theravadan_buddhism.lasso (Again, my copy is in Singapore)

            I do not recall the late Ven. Narada having a book of the same title. A web search informs that it refers to a 27-page booklet published by the late Venerable in 1972. http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/156457

            I believe this is now part of a popular book The Buddha and His Teachings, a compilation by Ven. Narada for beginners to learn the Buddha's teachings. If that is the case, this text is available here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/budtch/budteach06.htm This book is also available in hardcopy from BPS http://www.bps.lk and other distributors, including Amazon.

            Unlike, say Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Narada's writings, as far as I understand, is not owned by any individual or organisation. In such a case, according to the Buddhist tradition, it is considered to be in the public domain. However, we should always be mindful about putting materials in the Files section. One good practice is for the person who puts up the material to include the author, publisher (even if it is a cooperative), and date of publication, and inform if the material is copyrighted and should be used only for the purpose of study. This can be easily done in PDF nowadays.

            This sutta, together with any two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha. I support Nina's idea to go through the Pali text and its commentaries here. Ven. ~Nanamoli's translations are available here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel017.html


            metta,
            Yong Peng.



            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

            > Beautiful idea Nina! Much easier!
            > I would love to study the book with the sangha group.

            N: We better ask our moderator first whether it is O.K. to have the book on the files. Actually, the Pali text and its commentary in Pali could be added.
          • yongpeng.ong
            Dear friends, I actually meant: This sutta, together with another two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha. Thank you. metta,
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 13, 2009
              Dear friends,

              I actually meant:

              This sutta, together with another two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.

              Thank you.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, yongpeng.ong wrote:

              This sutta, together with any two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.
            • Lotsawanet
              Dear Yong Peng, What would be the other two suttas from Samyutta? Best wishes, tenphel From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 14, 2009
                Dear Yong Peng,



                What would be the other two suttas from Samyutta?



                Best wishes,

                tenphel



                From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                yongpeng.ong
                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:43 AM
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Pali] Re: First Sermon of the Buddha





                Dear friends,

                I actually meant:

                This sutta, together with another two from the Samyutta, forms the three
                cardinal discourses of the Buddha.

                Thank you.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , yongpeng.ong
                wrote:

                This sutta, together with any two from the Samyutta, forms the three
                cardinal discourses of the Buddha.



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              • ardavarz
                Dear friends, I also would recommend the Piya Tan s study on Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta available from: http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/sam.yuttanikayya
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 14, 2009
                  Dear friends,

                  I also would recommend the Piya Tan's study on Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta available from:
                  http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/sam.yuttanikayya

                  Metta,
                  Ardavarz

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "yongpeng.ong" <palismith@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear friends,
                  >
                  > I actually meant:
                  >
                  > This sutta, together with another two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.
                  >
                  > Thank you.
                  >
                  > metta,
                  > Yong Peng.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, yongpeng.ong wrote:
                  >
                  > This sutta, together with any two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.
                  >
                • ardavarz
                  Dear Yong Peng, Just a stupid question: I know the two of the cardinal discourses of the Buddha - Dhammacakkappavattana (the First Sermon) and Anattalakkha.na
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 14, 2009
                    Dear Yong Peng,

                    Just a stupid question: I know the two of the cardinal discourses of the Buddha - Dhammacakkappavattana (the First Sermon) and Anattalakkha.na (the Second Sermon). (In fact, these were the first Pali Suttas I've read after studying Ven. Narada's textbook several years ago). Could tell me, please, which is the third Sutta regarded as cardinal?
                    Thank you in advance.

                    With metta,
                    Ardavarz

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "yongpeng.ong" <palismith@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear friends,
                    >
                    > I actually meant:
                    >
                    > This sutta, together with another two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.
                    >
                    > Thank you.
                    >
                    > metta,
                    > Yong Peng.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, yongpeng.ong wrote:
                    >
                    > This sutta, together with any two from the Samyutta, forms the three cardinal discourses of the Buddha.
                    >
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Ardavarz, Eskay and all interested, ... N: A very good idea. I thought of Piya. For years he has a website with intensive, thorough study of suttas and
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 16, 2009
                      Dear Ardavarz, Eskay and all interested,

                      Op 14-okt-2009, om 22:33 heeft ardavarz het volgende geschreven:

                      > I also would recommend the Piya Tan's study on
                      > Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta available from:
                      > http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/sam.yuttanikayya
                      > -----------
                      N: A very good idea. I thought of Piya. For years he has a website
                      with intensive, thorough study of suttas and why shouldn't we profit
                      from his expertise and knowledge?

                      I loaded down for myself the Pali text and Pali commentary. Now, how
                      are we going about to study all this? I cannot be a project leader,
                      since I have too many projects already. Could Eskay or someone else
                      begin?
                      Nina.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • yongpeng.ong
                      Dear Tenphel, Ardavarz and friends, according to Theravada traditional account, these were the first three sermons of the Buddha. 1. Dhammacakkappavattana
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 17, 2009
                        Dear Tenphel, Ardavarz and friends,

                        according to Theravada traditional account, these were the first three sermons of the Buddha.

                        1. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (at Isipatana, Varanasi)
                        2. Anattalakkhana Sutta (at Isipatana, Varanasi)
                        3. Adittapariyaya Sutta (at Gayasisa, Gaya)

                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel017.html

                        In Dhammacakkappavattana, the Buddha's maiden sermon, we learnt about the Middle Way, the Four Noble Truths, and the underlying theme of Dependent Origination.

                        In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.

                        The third, Adittapariyaya, was considered by T. S. Eliot to be highly significant, just like the Sermon of the Mount in the Bible. I do not know what Eliot meant by making such comparisons. However, this sermon marks a historic moment in the Buddha's ministry and the Sangha movement, just as the first sermon marks the beginning of the Sangha.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Lotsawanet wrote:

                        What would be the other two suttas from Samyutta?
                      • yongpeng.ong
                        Dear Nina and friends, I agree with Nina that someone needs to take the lead to kick off the project. ;-) metta, Yong Peng. ... Now, how are we going about
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 17, 2009
                          Dear Nina and friends,

                          I agree with Nina that someone needs to take the lead to "kick off" the project. ;-)

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng.


                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                          Now, how are we going about to study all this? I cannot be a project leader, since I have too many projects already. Could Eskay or someone else begin?
                        • yongpeng.ong
                          Dear friends, allow me to paraphrase: In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 17, 2009
                            Dear friends,

                            allow me to paraphrase:

                            In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - is now complete.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, yongpeng.ong wrote:

                            In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.
                          • Roger Garin-Michaud
                            Hello friends, in reading the message about the First Sermon of the Buddha i began to wonder in which order one should read the sutras ? Any advice on that ?
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 17, 2009
                              Hello friends,
                              in reading the message about the First Sermon of the Buddha i began to wonder in which
                              order one should read the sutras ?
                              Any advice on that ?
                              And what would be nowadays the best translation in English ?
                              Thanks for your help !
                              Roger Garin-Michaud
                              still living in Brisbane, Australia
                              Buddhist bibliography November 2009 update at :
                              http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddbib.html
                              Buddhist websites directory at :
                              http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddlinks.html

                               



                              ________________________________
                              From: yongpeng.ong <palismith@...>
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, 18 October, 2009 8:52:04 AM
                              Subject: [Pali] Re: First Sermon of the Buddha

                               
                              Dear friends,

                              allow me to paraphrase:

                              In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - is now complete.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, yongpeng.ong wrote:

                              In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.





                              __________________________________________________________________________________
                              Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                              Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • palistudent
                              Dear Roger, You ask about a recommended order for reading the suttas. I would assert that you can t go past Bhikkhu Bodhi s excellent book, In the Buddha s
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 20, 2009
                                Dear Roger,

                                You ask about a recommended order for reading the suttas. I would assert that you can't go past Bhikkhu Bodhi's excellent book, "In the Buddha's Words" (Wisdom Publications, 2005). Here he tackles that very issue of how to present the Buddha's sermons and lays out a thoughtful order of sutta translations, with excellent introductions to each. I also think that Bhikkhu Bodhi is the best modern day English translator of Pali.

                                With metta,
                                John

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Roger Garin-Michaud <wangchuk59@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello friends,
                                > in reading the message about the First Sermon of the Buddha i began to wonder in which
                                > order one should read the sutras ?
                                > Any advice on that ?
                                > And what would be nowadays the best translation in English ?
                                > Thanks for your help !
                                > Roger Garin-Michaud
                                > still living in Brisbane, Australia
                                > Buddhist bibliography November 2009 update at :
                                > http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddbib.html
                                > Buddhist websites directory at :
                                > http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddlinks.html
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: yongpeng.ong <palismith@...>
                                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sun, 18 October, 2009 8:52:04 AM
                                > Subject: [Pali] Re: First Sermon of the Buddha
                                >
                                >  
                                > Dear friends,
                                >
                                > allow me to paraphrase:
                                >
                                > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - is now complete.
                                >
                                > metta,
                                > Yong Peng.
                                >
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, yongpeng.ong wrote:
                                >
                                > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________________________________________
                                > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                                > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Roger Garin-Michaud
                                thanks John, that s a great help ! Roger ________________________________ From: palistudent To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 21
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 20, 2009
                                  thanks John, that's a great help !
                                  Roger




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: palistudent <palistudent@...>
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, 21 October, 2009 3:29:56 PM
                                  Subject: [Pali] order to read suttas

                                   
                                  Dear Roger,

                                  You ask about a recommended order for reading the suttas. I would assert that you can't go past Bhikkhu Bodhi's excellent book, "In the Buddha's Words" (Wisdom Publications, 2005). Here he tackles that very issue of how to present the Buddha's sermons and lays out a thoughtful order of sutta translations, with excellent introductions to each. I also think that Bhikkhu Bodhi is the best modern day English translator of Pali.

                                  With metta,
                                  John

                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.. com, Roger Garin-Michaud <wangchuk59@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello friends,
                                  > in reading the message about the First Sermon of the Buddha i began to wonder in which
                                  > order one should read the sutras ?
                                  > Any advice on that ?
                                  > And what would be nowadays the best translation in English ?
                                  > Thanks for your help !
                                  > Roger Garin-Michaud
                                  > still living in Brisbane, Australia
                                  > Buddhist bibliography November 2009 update at :
                                  > http://www.golden- wheel.net/ buddbib.html
                                  > Buddhist websites directory at :
                                  > http://www.golden- wheel.net/ buddlinks. html
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                  > From: yongpeng.ong <palismith@.. ..>
                                  > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Sun, 18 October, 2009 8:52:04 AM
                                  > Subject: [Pali] Re: First Sermon of the Buddha
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Dear friends,
                                  >
                                  > allow me to paraphrase:
                                  >
                                  > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - is now complete.
                                  >
                                  > metta,
                                  > Yong Peng.
                                  >
                                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, yongpeng.ong wrote:
                                  >
                                  > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                  > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                                  > Learn more: http://au.overview. mail.yahoo. com/
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >





                                  __________________________________________________________________________________
                                  Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                                  Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear John and Roger, given the vast collection of suttas, I agree Bhikkhu Bodhi s In the Buddha s Words provides a very good starting point, and he has
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 21, 2009
                                    Dear John and Roger,

                                    given the vast collection of suttas, I agree Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words" provides a very good starting point, and he has surely make the best of what a typical book can contain before it turns into another "nikaya".

                                    Beyond that, I would recommend to read widely from different translators, and also to learn Pali to be able to read and appreciate the teachings without translation.

                                    John, your Yahoo! ID is showing up instead up your name. You have to log in and update your Yahoo! profile, which was recently revamped.


                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.



                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, palistudent wrote:

                                    You ask about a recommended order for reading the suttas. I would assert that you can't go past Bhikkhu Bodhi's excellent book, "In the Buddha's Words" (Wisdom Publications, 2005). Here he tackles that very issue of how to present the Buddha's sermons and lays out a thoughtful order of sutta translations, with excellent introductions to each. I also think that Bhikkhu Bodhi is the best modern day English translator of Pali.
                                  • ardavarz
                                    Dear Roger, I am not sure if this is the recommended order of reading Suttas, but it could be as in the revered Sinhala collection Pirit Potha ( Book of
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 21, 2009
                                      Dear Roger,

                                      I am not sure if this is the recommended order of reading Suttas, but it could be as in the revered Sinhala collection Pirit Potha ("Book of Protection") which includes 24 suttas from different Nikaayas. (An English translation of it by Piyadassi Thera can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/protection.html).

                                      It is an interesting question if there is some traditional fixed order of studying Suttas. I have encountered with such beliefs regarding texts in other traditions (f.e. in Neo-Platonism, Vedanta, Sufism), so why not in Buddhism too? I just don't know but maybe a similar thing exists.

                                      With metta,
                                      Ardavarz



                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Roger Garin-Michaud <wangchuk59@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello friends,
                                      > in reading the message about the First Sermon of the Buddha i began to wonder in which
                                      > order one should read the sutras ?
                                      > Any advice on that ?
                                      > And what would be nowadays the best translation in English ?
                                      > Thanks for your help !
                                      > Roger Garin-Michaud
                                      > still living in Brisbane, Australia
                                      > Buddhist bibliography November 2009 update at :
                                      > http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddbib.html
                                      > Buddhist websites directory at :
                                      > http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddlinks.html
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: yongpeng.ong <palismith@...>
                                      > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Sun, 18 October, 2009 8:52:04 AM
                                      > Subject: [Pali] Re: First Sermon of the Buddha
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > Dear friends,
                                      >
                                      > allow me to paraphrase:
                                      >
                                      > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - is now complete.
                                      >
                                      > metta,
                                      > Yong Peng.
                                      >
                                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, yongpeng.ong wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In Anattalakkhana, his second sermon, the Buddha discussed non-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca). Together with dukkha - the Buddhist philosophical view of existence - from the first sutta, the doctrine of the trio of characteristics, tilakkhana is now complete.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________________________________________
                                      > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                                      > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                      Dear Yong Peng and all interested in the First Sermon sutta, ... N: Yes, it is always good to consult several translators. Bikkhu Bodhi s book is not on line
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 22, 2009
                                        Dear Yong Peng and all interested in the 'First Sermon' sutta,

                                        Op 21-okt-2009, om 12:27 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                        > given the vast collection of suttas, I agree Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In
                                        > the Buddha's Words" provides a very good starting point, and he has
                                        > surely make the best of what a typical book can contain before it
                                        > turns into another "nikaya".
                                        >
                                        > Beyond that, I would recommend to read widely from different
                                        > translators, and also to learn Pali to be able to read and
                                        > appreciate the teachings without translation.
                                        -------
                                        N: Yes, it is always good to consult several translators. Bikkhu
                                        Bodhi's book is not on line as I understand and thus it is difficult
                                        as subject of discussion on line in our forum here.
                                        I have been reading Piya's study which is online:< http://
                                        dharmafarer.googlepages.com <1.1DhammacakkappavattanaSs56.11piya.pdf>
                                        We can read this for ourselves.
                                        This gives a long intro and refers to other suttas to place the text
                                        in the context.
                                        There is something particular that I find good and I quote:
                                        <The Dhamma,cakka
                                        the truths, namely:
                                        (1) the knowledge of each truth (sacca,–ā
                                        (2) the knowledge of the task to be done regarding each truth
                                        (kicca,–ā
                                        (3) the knowledge of the accomplishment of these tasks (kata,–ā
                                        When these three phases are applied to each of the four truths, they
                                        total as the twelve aspects or modes
                                        (dvādas’ākāra). The Commentarial version of these three phases
                                        are called “the three true teachings”
                                        (saddhamma), viz, the True Dharma as theory (textual aspect)
                                        (pariyatti saddhamma), the True Dharma
                                        as practice (pa
                                        AA 5.33; cf Nm 143 where the first two are listed).
                                        5.2 TRUTH AND REALITY. In doctrinal terms, it is the four noble
                                        truths or realities (cattāri ariya,
                                        saccāni) that the Buddha realizes on the day of his awakening. Here,
                                        I have translated ariya,sacca as “the
                                        noble truth that is...” rather than the more familiar “the noble
                                        truth of...” simply because they are not
                                        merely theoretical statements, such as “the theory of
                                        relativity” (which refers to a scientific observation
                                        rather than a personal experience). These noble truths relate to
                                        universal realities, not theories of reality.
                                        Above all, the fourth noble truth is that of the way out of
                                        suffering, that is, the path that leads to spiritual
                                        liberation. >

                                        N: I am glad Piya emphasizes that all this is not theory. even the
                                        first round: sacca ~naa.na, is not theory at all. It is the firm
                                        conviction that these are the ruths to be known and it is to be
                                        applied to life at this moment. One knows that the objects of
                                        awareness (kicca ~naa.na, knowledge of the task) are seeing arising
                                        at this moment, attachment arising at this moment, all dhammas
                                        arising now are the objects of right understanding. One has the firm
                                        conviction that this is the Path to be developed.
                                        The first round leads to the second round and this to the direct
                                        realization of the Truths: kata ~naa.na. But the first round is never
                                        relinguished, it becomes clearer and clearer.
                                        There is a lot more to be said about the three rounds which have to
                                        be applied in our daily life.
                                        We can also together go over the sutta in Pali, a few lines at a time.

                                        *******
                                        Nina.





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Nina, thank you. I think you may have to give away some goodies to entice someone to lead the discussion. ;-) For a mailing list to operate,
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 22, 2009
                                          Dear Nina,

                                          thank you. I think you may have to give away some goodies to entice someone to lead the discussion. ;-)

                                          For a mailing list to operate, participation is important, and we also emphasize on the quality of our discussions. If we cannot find a permanent lead, we can have multiple "co-leads". Another approach is "round-robin", in which people take turn to contribute to the translation, and do not dominate the discussion.

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.


                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                          We can also together go over the sutta in Pali, a few lines at a time.
                                        • Nina van Gorkom
                                          Dear Yong Peng, ... N: I had to laugh. ... N: both options seem good, see what happens, conditions! I know we cannot force anybody. Since no one started, I
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 22, 2009
                                            Dear Yong Peng,

                                            Op 22-okt-2009, om 14:21 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                            > I think you may have to give away some goodies to entice someone to
                                            > lead the discussion. ;-)
                                            ------
                                            N: I had to laugh.
                                            ------
                                            >
                                            > Y.P. For a mailing list to operate, participation is important, and
                                            > we also emphasize on the quality of our discussions. If we cannot
                                            > find a permanent lead, we can have multiple "co-leads". Another
                                            > approach is "round-robin", in which people take turn to contribute
                                            > to the translation, and do not dominate the discussion.
                                            -------
                                            N: both options seem good, see what happens, conditions! I know we
                                            cannot force anybody.
                                            Since no one started, I thought of making a beginning, but who will
                                            follow up?

                                            The link I gave to Piya's works was not so clear, and thus I repeat
                                            the link given a few days ago:

                                            https://sites.google.com/site/dharmafarer/home/samyutta-nikaya/
                                            1.1DhammacakkappavattanaSs56.11piya.pdf?attredirects=0

                                            Piya wrote to me and kindly offered any help if needed. He also
                                            mentioned:
                                            <Our new website, http://www.dharmafarer.net is also being completed
                                            now. Meantime, the other
                                            translations are still available at http://
                                            dharmafarer.googlepages.com. >

                                            Hoping to hear from all those interested,
                                            Nina.









                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Nina, John (Kelly) had previously covered this sutta in Lesson 12 of A New Course in Reading Pali. I suggest to use his translation as the basis for a
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 23, 2009
                                              Dear Nina,

                                              John (Kelly) had previously covered this sutta in Lesson 12 of A New Course in Reading Pali. I suggest to use his translation as the basis for a group study. I am happy to participate in the discussion.

                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/6396


                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng.


                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                              Since no one started, I thought of making a beginning, but who will follow up?
                                            • Nina van Gorkom
                                              Dear Yong Peng, a good idea to use this exercise, since it is available already. At the same time we can consult translations of Piya and others. Nina. ...
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 23, 2009
                                                Dear Yong Peng,
                                                a good idea to use this exercise, since it is available already. At
                                                the same time we can consult translations of Piya and others.
                                                Nina.
                                                Op 24-okt-2009, om 7:16 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                                > John (Kelly) had previously covered this sutta in Lesson 12 of A
                                                > New Course in Reading Pali. I suggest to use his translation as the
                                                > basis for a group study. I am happy to participate in the discussion.
                                                >
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/6396
                                                >



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                                Dear Nina, I have not read Piya s translation, but as usual I am happy to discuss any points brought up on the list. metta, Yong Peng. ... a good idea to use
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 24, 2009
                                                  Dear Nina,

                                                  I have not read Piya's translation, but as usual I am happy to discuss any points brought up on the list.

                                                  metta,
                                                  Yong Peng.


                                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                                  a good idea to use this exercise, since it is available already. At the same time we can consult translations of Piya and others.

                                                  > John (Kelly) had previously covered this sutta in Lesson 12 of A
                                                  > New Course in Reading Pali. I suggest to use his translation as the
                                                  > basis for a group study. I am happy to participate in the discussion.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/6396
                                                • Lotsawanet
                                                  Dear Nina, I am very happy for the opportunity to study this text! I have been studying Dharma vocabulary in Sanskrit and I translate from Tibetan. I do not
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 24, 2009
                                                    Dear Nina,



                                                    I am very happy for the opportunity to study this text!

                                                    I have been studying Dharma vocabulary in Sanskrit and I translate from
                                                    Tibetan.

                                                    I do not know pali to be able to help in the study and maybe here is not the
                                                    case to make a comparative study of the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta with
                                                    Sanskrit and Tibetan versions.

                                                    Anyway, I will be very happy to study together!



                                                    Thanks very much for this Dhamma action.

                                                    PS. How about the commentaries from Theravada masters in Pali that we could
                                                    use simultaneously with our study?

                                                    Best wishes, gabriel



                                                    From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
                                                    van Gorkom
                                                    Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 12:27 PM
                                                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] SN56.11 Dhammacakkappavattanasutta (Re: order to read
                                                    suttas)





                                                    Dear Yong Peng,
                                                    a good idea to use this exercise, since it is available already. At
                                                    the same time we can consult translations of Piya and others.
                                                    Nina.
                                                    Op 24-okt-2009, om 7:16 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                                    > John (Kelly) had previously covered this sutta in Lesson 12 of A
                                                    > New Course in Reading Pali. I suggest to use his translation as the
                                                    > basis for a group study. I am happy to participate in the discussion.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/6396
                                                    >

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                                    Dear Gabriel, ... N: How would you like the Pali to be presented, as trilineair, the way Yong Peng does for the Ang. Nikaya 2? O.K. if you find this easier to
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 25, 2009
                                                      Dear Gabriel,
                                                      Op 24-okt-2009, om 15:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

                                                      > Anyway, I will be very happy to study together!
                                                      >
                                                      > Thanks very much for this Dhamma action.
                                                      >
                                                      > PS. How about the commentaries from Theravada masters in Pali that
                                                      > we could
                                                      > use simultaneously with our study?
                                                      -------
                                                      N: How would you like the Pali to be presented, as trilineair, the
                                                      way Yong Peng does for the Ang. Nikaya 2? O.K. if you find this
                                                      easier to follow, but very little at a time.
                                                      Co: yes, they are important. But I could not manage to translate the
                                                      co. word by word, I would only give a summary.
                                                      I am very happy if anybody butts in or gives a hand.

                                                      Nina.



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                                      Dear Gabriel, You find more about Chinese version and Tibetan verison in Piya s site: Nina. ...
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Oct 25, 2009
                                                        Dear Gabriel,
                                                        You find more about Chinese version and Tibetan verison in Piya's site:
                                                        <http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com or www.dharmafarer.org >
                                                        Nina.
                                                        Op 24-okt-2009, om 15:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

                                                        > maybe here is not the
                                                        > case to make a comparative study of the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta
                                                        > with
                                                        > Sanskrit and Tibetan versions.



                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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