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Saddaniiti XXV: 867

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  • Jim Anderson
    [Saddaniiti XXV: aakhyaatakappo : sutta 867, p. 811,23-7 Smith s edn.] 867 dve dve pa.thamamajjhimuttamapurisaa. ti anti iti pa.thamapurisaa, si tha iti
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 14, 2009
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      [Saddaniiti XXV: aakhyaatakappo : sutta 867, p. 811,23-7 Smith's edn.]

      867 dve dve pa.thamamajjhimuttamapurisaa. ti anti iti pa.thamapurisaa,
      si tha iti majjhimapurisaa, mi ma iti uttamapurisaa; tathaa te ante
      iti pa.thamapurisaa, se vhe iti majjhimapurisaa, e mhe iti
      uttamapurisaa. vattamaanaavaseneta.m vutta.m, sesaasupi aya.m nayo
      netabbo.

      867. Two each are the third, second, and first person endings. "ti
      anti" are the third person endings, "si tha" are the second person
      endings, "mi ma" are the first person endings; likewise, "te ante" are
      the third person endings, "se vhe" are the second person endings, "e
      mhe" are the first person endings. This is stated by way of the
      present (tense), this method should be carried out on the remaining
      (tenses) also.

      Notes:
      1) "dve dve" (two each) is one word (dvedve) according to
      commentaries on the corresponding sutta at Kc 408. The translation
      "Two each" is based on Warder, p. 274. The idea is a division of a
      group of six active or six middle voice terminations into three
      smaller groups of two to represent the personal endings.
      2) "pa.thamamajjhimuttamapurisaa" is a dvanda compound that is
      resolved into 'pa.thamapurisaa ca majjhimapurisaa ca uttamapurisaa ca'
      consisting of three technical terms (sa~n~naa).
      3) 'Purisa' according to Sd 1319 (p. 873) is derived from the
      root 'pura' + the primary suffix 'isa'. In the Dhaatumaalaa, p. 430,
      the root is listed as: 747 pura aggagamane. But according to the Thai
      edn. (Sd 1319), the root is 'puura' which is also the one given at Kc
      673. Mmd glosses this with 'puura daanapuura.nesu' (two meanings: to
      give; to fill). For Sanskrit 'puru.sa', the U.naadisuutrako"sa gives:
      puratyagra.m gacchatiiti puru.sa.h pumaan for U.n 4.75 pura.h ku.san.
      puru.sa.h.

      Jim Anderson, 14 September 2009

      The Saddaniiti project page:
      http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
    • gdbedell
      ... (i) Warder calls this simple repetition (aame.n.dita) , and it is clear from his earlier discussion (p. 171) that he regards such repetition as phrasal
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 14, 2009
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        Jim wrote:

        > "dve dve" (two each) is one word (dvedve) according to
        > commentaries on the corresponding sutta at Kc 408. The
        > translation "Two each" is based on Warder, p. 274.

        (i) Warder calls this 'simple repetition (aame.n.dita)', and it
        is clear from his earlier discussion (p. 171) that he regards
        such repetition as phrasal (i. e. not compounds). It seems
        to me that Warder is right on this point and the commentaries
        wrong, though Jim does not repeat their reasoning. In
        Aggava.msa's parallel discussion in pariccheda 2 (Smith p. 14)
        we see dve dve padaani (l. 20-1) alongside dviisu dviisu
        padesu (l. 23). If dve dve is a single word, it must be some
        type of compound (dvandva suggests itself). But in
        compounds all but the final member are avibhatti. Since
        here the first dve can be inflected (locative plural), in must
        be a separate word.

        (ii) It might be relevant to point out, as Smith notes and
        Jim is well aware, that the suttas 865, 866 and 867 are
        virtually identical to 408, 409 and 410 of Kaccaayana.
        The only difference is atha 'and' which appears as the
        first word in 408, but not in 865. The corresponding
        vuttis are also very similar, though Aggava.msa has
        sometimes clarified and sometimes simplified. He does
        not repeat Kaccaayana's references to suttas using the
        terms 'active' and 'middle' or 'first, second and third
        person'. It would also be instructive to compare the
        current suttas with the variant treatment in pariccheda
        2 (which generally correponds to pariccheda 25). My
        translation of the beginning portion is available on the
        project page, but the version posted there is unreadable.
        A better (but still not final) version was posted later the
        same day (Dec. 28, 2008) as message 13099. It would
        be nice to have the later version available on the
        project page.

        George

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
        >
        > [Saddaniiti XXV: aakhyaatakappo : sutta 867, p. 811,23-7 Smith's edn.]
        >
        > 867 dve dve pa.thamamajjhimuttamapurisaa. ti anti iti pa.thamapurisaa,
        > si tha iti majjhimapurisaa, mi ma iti uttamapurisaa; tathaa te ante
        > iti pa.thamapurisaa, se vhe iti majjhimapurisaa, e mhe iti
        > uttamapurisaa. vattamaanaavaseneta.m vutta.m, sesaasupi aya.m nayo
        > netabbo.
        >
        > 867. Two each are the third, second, and first person endings. "ti
        > anti" are the third person endings, "si tha" are the second person
        > endings, "mi ma" are the first person endings; likewise, "te ante" are
        > the third person endings, "se vhe" are the second person endings, "e
        > mhe" are the first person endings. This is stated by way of the
        > present (tense), this method should be carried out on the remaining
        > (tenses) also.
        >
        > Notes:
        > 1) "dve dve" (two each) is one word (dvedve) according to
        > commentaries on the corresponding sutta at Kc 408. The translation
        > "Two each" is based on Warder, p. 274. The idea is a division of a
        > group of six active or six middle voice terminations into three
        > smaller groups of two to represent the personal endings.
        > 2) "pa.thamamajjhimuttamapurisaa" is a dvanda compound that is
        > resolved into 'pa.thamapurisaa ca majjhimapurisaa ca uttamapurisaa ca'
        > consisting of three technical terms (sa~n~naa).
        > 3) 'Purisa' according to Sd 1319 (p. 873) is derived from the
        > root 'pura' + the primary suffix 'isa'. In the Dhaatumaalaa, p. 430,
        > the root is listed as: 747 pura aggagamane. But according to the Thai
        > edn. (Sd 1319), the root is 'puura' which is also the one given at Kc
        > 673. Mmd glosses this with 'puura daanapuura.nesu' (two meanings: to
        > give; to fill). For Sanskrit 'puru.sa', the U.naadisuutrako"sa gives:
        > puratyagra.m gacchatiiti puru.sa.h pumaan for U.n 4.75 pura.h ku.san.
        > puru.sa.h.
        >
        > Jim Anderson, 14 September 2009
        >
        > The Saddaniiti project page:
        > http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
        >
      • Jim Anderson
        ... I may not be understanding what the commentaries mean when they give the word count for the sutta at Kc 408 as dvipadamida.m (Mmd). It seems that pada
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 15, 2009
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          Geiorge wrote:

          > (i) Warder calls this 'simple repetition (aame.n.dita)', and it
          > is clear from his earlier discussion (p. 171) that he regards
          > such repetition as phrasal (i. e. not compounds). It seems
          > to me that Warder is right on this point and the commentaries
          > wrong, though Jim does not repeat their reasoning.

          I may not be understanding what the commentaries mean when they give
          the word count for the sutta at Kc 408 as dvipadamida.m (Mmd). It
          seems that 'pada' doesn't necessarily refer to single words per se but
          phrases as well. This becomes even more evident at Kc 423 where the 12
          suffixes of the present tense are listed along with the term
          vattamaanaa. Mmd also says this sutta is dvipadamida.m. So the list of
          12 suffixes has to be interpreted as a phrasal unit (one pada).

          For the next several weeks my Monday postings may be delayed. I'll be
          switching over to my other residence and I may be going to Toronto to
          visit friends. Things should be back to normal by mid-October.

          Regards,
          Jim
        • Jim Anderson
          I wrote:
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 16, 2009
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            I wrote:

            << I may not be understanding what the commentaries mean when they
            give the word count for the sutta at Kc 408 as dvipadamida.m (Mmd). It
            seems that 'pada' doesn't necessarily refer to single words per se but
            phrases as well. This becomes even more evident at Kc 423 where the 12
            suffixes of the present tense are listed along with the term
            vattamaanaa. Mmd also says this sutta is dvipadamida.m. So the list of
            12 suffixes has to be interpreted as a phrasal unit (one pada). >>

            I will have to reconsider whether the phrase 'dve dve' is two separate
            words or a compounded 'dvedve'. I just found out that one will likely
            have to interpret the list of 12 vattamaanaa suffixes in Kc 423 as a
            dvanda compound according to the Mmd comment (below) on Kc 55 which
            lists the14 syaadi declensional suffixes:

            sica yoca a,nca yoca naca hica saca na.mca smaaca hica saca na.mca
            smi.mca sucaati viggahe naamaana.m samaaso yuttatthotyadhikicca
            naamaana.m samuccayo dvandoti dvandasamaase kate...

            Jim
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