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Saddaniiti Chapter 1 (7)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, this post is short, but it took me quite a while. I also reprint the first two lines of the verse. Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 19, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      this post is short, but it took me quite a while. I also reprint the first two lines of the verse.

      Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
      Due to this and that action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

      Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
      due to the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.

      Naamika-p-paccayaana.m yo, vibhaago aavi hessati;
      The division, which [belongs to] the verbal suffix by name, will [soon] be evident;

      Naamakappe yato tasmaa, na ta.m vitthaara-y-aamase.
      in the noun proper since therefore, not it the expansion (I) handle.

      Yo novikara.naana.m tu, paccayaana.m vibhaagato;
      Now, [that] which [belongs to] novikaranas, from the division of verbal suffixes;

      So panaakhyaatakappamhi, vitthaarenaa'gamissatiiti.
      in the verb proper, it will however go[/come] with the [full] expansion (in detail).

      Iccaanekavidhesu paccayesu "vikara.napaccayaa naama ime"ti sallakkhetabbaa.
      Among the various forms (of) verbal suffixes, "these known as vikarana verbal suffixes" should be understood thus.


      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      Project page: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, Thank you very much. ... N: Instead of expansion, would detail better in this case? But I do not know about what follows vitthaaraya: amase.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 19, 2009
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        Dear Yong Peng,
        Thank you very much.
        Op 19-jul-2009, om 13:11 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

        > Naamakappe yato tasmaa, na ta.m vitthaara-y-aamase.
        > in the noun proper since therefore, not it the expansion (I) handle.
        -------
        N: Instead of expansion, would detail better in this case? But I do
        not know about what follows vitthaaraya: amase.
        -------
        >
        > Y.P. Yo novikara.naana.m tu, paccayaana.m vibhaagato;
        > Now, [that] which [belongs to] novikaranas, from the division of
        > verbal suffixes;
        -------
        N: I do not know what novikaranas are.
        I try to think: what is meant in this passage, what is being
        expressed, and I have trouble understanding it.

        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Noah Yuttadhammo
        Dear Friends, Sounds like a challenge... I m not sure, but I have some idea... ... in the CSCD, it reads paccayaa tha vaa , and I wonder if this is meaning to
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 19, 2009
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          Dear Friends,

          Sounds like a challenge... I'm not sure, but I have some idea...
          here's some suggestions:

          > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
          > Due to this and that action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

          in the CSCD, it reads "paccayaa tha vaa", and I wonder if this is
          meaning to give two examples of different paccaya, viz "enti" and
          "tha". I've never seen a word like paccayaatha.

          > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
          > due to the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.

          saddanipphatti might mean "perfection (ie adjustment) of sound"?

          > Naamika-p-paccayaana.m yo, vibhaago aavi hessati;
          > The division, which [belongs to] the verbal suffix by name, will [soon] be evident;

          naamikappaccaya - the suffixes of naamika? aavi hessati might just
          mean "will be made clear". Here I would guess, "What (yo)
          classification is the classification of the suffixes of naamika, that
          classification will be made clear."

          > Naamakappe yato tasmaa, na ta.m vitthaara-y-aamase.
          > in the noun proper since therefore, not it the expansion (I) handle.

          Something like "from that which is in the resemblance of naama, such
          we should not expand upon. (vitthaarayaamase I take as a pa~ncami
          verb, vitthaarayaamhase)?


          > Yo novikara.naana.m tu, paccayaana.m vibhaagato;
          > Now, [that] which [belongs to] novikaranas, from the division of verbal suffixes;

          I would bet it is "yo no vikara.naana.m", thus something like "but
          rather what is not belonging to alterations, what belongs to the
          classification of suffixes"

          > So panaakhyaatakappamhi, vitthaarenaa'gamissatiiti.
          > in the verb proper, it will however go[/come] with the [full] expansion (in detail).

          maybe - That, rather, which indeed is in the resemblance of a verb,
          will go through expansion (will be expanded upon?).

          > Iccaanekavidhesu paccayesu "vikara.napaccayaa naama ime"ti sallakkhetabbaa.
          > Among the various forms (of) verbal suffixes, "these known as vikarana verbal suffixes" should be understood thus.

          maybe - Thus, in regards to the manifold suffixes, the words "these
          are called 'suffixes of alterations" should be cleared up.

          Cheers,

          Yuttadhammo
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Yong Peng, ... paccayaatha vaa = paccayaa atha vaa. The atha vaa goes with the next line of the verse. I think the two statements: pa.ticca...
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 20, 2009
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            Dear Yong Peng,

            > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
            > Due to this and that action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

            "paccayaatha vaa" = paccayaa atha vaa. The "atha vaa" goes with the
            next line of the verse. I think the two statements: "pa.ticca...
            entiiti" and (below) "pa.ticaa... etiiti" are nibbacanas or
            etymologies on the plural word "paccayaa". The "enti" and "eti" here
            are verbs, not suffixes. I think "kaara.na.m" means reason or cause,
            not action.

            > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
            > due to the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.

            I think "saddanipphatti" means the formation of a word and is the
            subject of the verb "eti" (goes or comes). I find the two etymologies
            in this verse difficult to understand and therefore hard to translate,
            especially the two verbs. I'll continue to look about for more
            precise meanings.

            > Naamika-p-paccayaana.m yo, vibhaago aavi hessati;
            > The division, which [belongs to] the verbal suffix by name, will
            [soon] be evident;

            Since (yato) whatever is the analysis of the nominal suffxes will be
            made clear

            > Naamakappe yato tasmaa, na ta.m vitthaara-y-aamase.
            > in the noun proper since therefore, not it the expansion (I) handle.

            in the Naamakappa, let us (or we should), therefore, not elaborate on
            it (here).

            Note: Naamakappa refers to the 21st pariccheda of the Suttamaalaa. The
            tense termination of the verb "vitthaarayaamase is "aamase", 1st
            person plural, imperative, middle. The imperative and optative have
            some uses in common.

            > Yo novikara.naana.m tu, paccayaana.m vibhaagato;
            > Now, [that] which [belongs to] novikaranas, from the division of
            verbal suffixes;
            >
            > So panaakhyaatakappamhi, vitthaarenaa'gamissatiiti.
            > in the verb proper, it will however go[/come] with the [full]
            expansion (in detail).

            Moreover, that which is in accordance with an analysis of the
            non-vikara.na suffixes, will come with explanations in the
            AAkhyaatakappa (i.e., the 25th pariccheda or chapter on verbs).

            Best wishes,
            Jim
          • Noah Yuttadhammo
            Dear Jim, Thank you, that is enlightening... ... I remember that eti = yati, no? So the verbal root ya is maybe here what is assumed to be meant by the ya
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 20, 2009
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              Dear Jim,

              Thank you, that is enlightening...

              > I think "saddanipphatti" means the formation of a word and is the
              > subject of the verb "eti" (goes or comes). I find the two etymologies
              > in this verse difficult to understand and therefore hard to translate,
              > especially the two verbs. I'll continue to look about for more
              > precise meanings.

              I remember that eti = yati, no? So the verbal root "ya" is maybe here
              what is assumed to be meant by the "ya" in paccaya, does that make
              sense?

              Something like:

              a) it comes (yati) concerning (paticca) such and such a function,
              therefore it is a paccaya.

              b) concerning (paticca) the completion of a word, thence it comes
              (yati).
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Phra Yuttadhammo, A long time has elapsed since I last saw you on a Pali discussion list. ... etymologies ... translate, ... here what is assumed to be
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 21, 2009
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                Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,

                A long time has elapsed since I last saw you on a Pali discussion
                list.

                > > I think "saddanipphatti" means the formation of a word and is the
                > > subject of the verb "eti" (goes or comes). I find the two
                etymologies
                > > in this verse difficult to understand and therefore hard to
                translate,
                > > especially the two verbs. I'll continue to look about for more
                > > precise meanings.
                >
                > I remember that eti = yati, no? So the verbal root "ya" is maybe
                here > what is assumed to be meant by the "ya" in paccaya, does that
                make > sense?

                You're probably thinking of the verbal root "yaa" but the one I
                usually come across for "eti" is "i". "eti" (go) is also homonymous
                with another "eti" (come) which has a prefix "aa" absorbed into the
                "e-".

                Thanks for the two suggested translations below which I'll keep in
                mind.

                > Something like:
                >
                > a) it comes (yati) concerning (paticca) such and such a function,
                > therefore it is a paccaya.
                >
                > b) concerning (paticca) the completion of a word, thence it comes
                > (yati).

                Best wishes,
                Jim
              • Noah Yuttadhammo
                Dear Jim, I ve just sort of got settled down here in America. Sloppy of me! /yaa it is, of course. I just mentioned it because it is the only way I can see
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 21, 2009
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                  Dear Jim,

                  I've just sort of got settled down here in America.

                  Sloppy of me! /yaa it is, of course. I just mentioned it because it
                  is the only way I can see them getting the "ya" from "i". Come to
                  think of it, wouldn't paticca + i => paticcaya anyway?

                  Yours in the quest for knowledge,

                  Yuttadhammo

                  PS Is the Palistudy group still up and going?

                  On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Jim Anderson<jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                  > Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,
                  >
                  > A long time has elapsed since I last saw you on a Pali discussion
                  > list.
                  >
                  >> > I think "saddanipphatti" means the formation of a word and is the
                  >> > subject of the verb "eti" (goes or comes). I find the two
                  > etymologies
                  >> > in this verse difficult to understand and therefore hard to
                  > translate,
                  >> > especially the two verbs. I'll continue to look about  for more
                  >> > precise meanings.
                  >>
                  >> I remember that eti = yati, no?  So the verbal root "ya" is maybe
                  > here > what is assumed to be meant by the "ya" in paccaya, does that
                  > make > sense?
                  >
                  > You're probably thinking of the verbal root "yaa" but the one I
                  > usually come across for "eti" is "i". "eti" (go) is also homonymous
                  > with another "eti" (come) which has a prefix "aa" absorbed into the
                  > "e-".
                  >
                  > Thanks for the two suggested translations below which I'll keep in
                  > mind.
                  >
                  >> Something like:
                  >>
                  >> a) it comes (yati) concerning (paticca) such and such a function,
                  >> therefore it is a paccaya.
                  >>
                  >> b) concerning (paticca) the completion of a word, thence it comes
                  >> (yati).
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Jim
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
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                • Jim Anderson
                  Desr Phra Yuttadhammo,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 21, 2009
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                    Desr Phra Yuttadhammo,

                    << Sloppy of me! /yaa it is, of course. I just mentioned it because
                    itis the only way I can see them getting the "ya" from "i". Come to
                    think of it, wouldn't paticca + i => paticcaya anyway? >>

                    "pa.ticca" is an absolutive and is used in the two etymologies to
                    explain the sense of the prefix "pati" in "paccaya". "pa.ticca" also
                    contains the root "i". How the forms "pa.ticca" and "paccaya" are
                    arrived at, I'm sure, are explained in the grammatical suttas. In the
                    second article on "eti" in CPD one will see our two etymologies from
                    the Saddaniiti quoted and included under sense 3: to evolve, arise
                    (right near the end). I think your "pa.ticcaya" is probably
                    non-existent in Pali. I found two more etymologies on the word
                    "paccaya" in the Padaruupasiddhi (Ruup 362) with further explanations
                    given in its .tiikaa. Here, "eti" is glossed with "aagacchati" and
                    "pa.ticca" with "nissaaya".

                    << PS Is the Palistudy group still up and going? >>

                    Yes it is and you're still a member.

                    Jim
                  • Noah Yuttadhammo
                    ... Sorry, yes, I got that. I guess I just assumed that the reason for using the verb eti was to explain the ya part. ... Okay... I suppose I should have
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 21, 2009
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                      On Tue, 2009-07-21 at 20:24 -0400, Jim Anderson wrote:
                      > "pa.ticca" is an absolutive and is used in the two etymologies to
                      > explain the sense of the prefix "pati" in "paccaya". "pa.ticca" also
                      > contains the root "i".

                      Sorry, yes, I got that. I guess I just assumed that the reason for
                      using the verb eti was to explain the "ya" part.

                      > How the forms "pa.ticca" and "paccaya" are
                      > arrived at, I'm sure, are explained in the grammatical suttas.

                      Okay... I suppose I should have waited to just jump in :)

                      > In the
                      > second article on "eti" in CPD one will see our two etymologies from
                      > the Saddaniiti quoted and included under sense 3: to evolve, arise
                      > (right near the end). I think your "pa.ticcaya" is probably
                      > non-existent in Pali.

                      Of course! I didn't mean to suggest anything else... but do you think
                      there is any merit to the idea of i = ya? Or am I just reading too much
                      into this?

                      > I found two more etymologies on the word
                      > "paccaya" in the Padaruupasiddhi (Ruup 362) with further explanations
                      > given in its .tiikaa. Here, "eti" is glossed with "aagacchati" and
                      > "pa.ticca" with "nissaaya".
                      >
                      > << PS Is the Palistudy group still up and going? >>
                      >
                      > Yes it is and you're still a member.

                      Can you activate this email account again?

                      Thanks,

                      Yuttadhammo
                    • Noah Yuttadhammo
                      Dear Friends, I m working on the DhpA for Thai Pali studies, but I doubt I ll ever have time to take the exams. If it s not too much load on the group, I d be
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 22, 2009
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                        Dear Friends,

                        I'm working on the DhpA for Thai Pali studies, but I doubt I'll ever
                        have time to take the exams. If it's not too much load on the group,
                        I'd be happy to share my work here instead. Please let me know what you
                        think. Here's a sample:

                        manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa ti dutiyagaathaapi saavatthiya.myeva
                        ma.t.thaku.n.dali.m aarabbha bhaasitaa.

                        "manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa...", this second stanza was spoken in that
                        very same Saavatthi, referring to Ma.t.thaku.n.dali.

                        saavatthiya.m kira adinnapubbako naama braahma.no ahosi.

                        In Saavatthi, it is said that there lived a Brahman named Adinnapubbaka.

                        tena kassaci ki~nci na dinnapubba.m, tena ta.m ``adinnapubbako``tveva
                        sa~njaani.msu.

                        By him to anyone not a thing was ever (pubba) given (dinna). Because of
                        that, he was well-known as Adinnapubbaka.
                        [the second part here is active, but passive seems better in English]

                        tassa ekaputtako ahosi piyo manaapo.

                        [A boy] was his only son, beloved [and] heart-warming.
                        [The Thai takes manaapa to mean "causes the mind to become 'erp aap'"]

                        athassa pilandhana.m kaaretukaamo ``sace suva.n.nakaare kaaressaami,
                        bhattavetana.m daatabba.m bhavissatii``ti sayameva suva.n.na.m
                        ko.t.tetvaa ma.t.thaani ku.n.dalaani katvaa adaasi.

                        Then, desirous to have an ornament made for him, [thinking], "if I have
                        gold-makers make [one], meal-and-wages will have to be given," he made a
                        pair of polished (ma.t.tha) earrings (ku.n.dala), having beaten the gold
                        all by himself, and gave them [to his son].
                        [Thai has "suva.n.nakaarassaacikkhissaami"]

                        tenassa putto ma.t.thaku.n.dalii tveva pa~n~naayittha.

                        Because of that, [his] son became known as just "ma.t.thaku.n.dalii".
                      • Mahinda Palihawadana
                        ... * Dear Ong Yong Peng and others,* *The translation of this verse seems to have hit upon a rock!* *Having thought much about the matter, I venture to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 22, 2009
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                          On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Dear friends,
                          >
                          > this post is short, but it took me quite a while. I also reprint the first
                          > two lines of the verse.
                          >
                          > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
                          > Due to this and that action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;
                          >
                          > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
                          > due to the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.
                          >
                          * Dear Ong Yong Peng and others,*

                          *The translation of this verse seems to have hit upon a rock!*

                          *Having thought much about the matter, I venture to suggest a tentative
                          explanation.*

                          *The author is here trying to define �paccaya� (affix) from its derivation.
                          The word is from �pa.ti+aya�. The latter (aya) is the noun from the root i-
                          to come. It is similar in derivation to �pa.ticca�, which famously means
                          �dependent upon� in the Pali language. (This word is �pa.ti+cca�. The part
                          �cca is from �t-ya-. This �tya is used to form the absolutive of a root
                          which has a prefix added to it, as is pa.ti+i-. It is mandatory in Sanskrit,
                          but optional in Pali.*

                          *From this derivation, the author takes the basic etymological meaning of
                          �paccaya� to be �dependently coming� or �that which comes dependently�. Then
                          he applies it to grammar as follows:*

                          *(a) **Paccaya is that which comes (into function) dependent on such
                          factors as whether it is required to form a noun, a verb, a primary
                          derivative or a secondary derivative. (pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m entiiti
                          paccayaa: they are called paccayas because they come into function depending
                          on various factors);*

                          *(b) ** Or else (atha vaa)*

                          *Paccaya is that factor dependent on which the form of a word attains
                          completion (nipphatti: see PTSD s.v.) pa.ticca saddanipphatti ito etiiti
                          paccayaa: they are called paccayas because the completion of a word comes
                          dependently from this (source).*

                          *Best regards.*
                          *Mahinda

                          *

                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mahinda Palihawadana
                          ... I must hasten to say that -tya is used only for roots having a short vowel; otherwise what is added to make the absolutive from a prefixed root is -ya , as
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 22, 2009
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                            On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>wrote:

                            >
                            > * This �tya is used to form the absolutive of a root which has a prefix
                            > added to it, as is pa.ti+i-. It is mandatory in Sanskrit, but optional in
                            > Pali.*
                            > **
                            >
                            I must hasten to say that -tya is used only for roots having a short vowel;
                            otherwise what is added to make the absolutive from a prefixed root is -ya ,
                            as against -tvaa which is the normal absolutive suffix. This is the rule in
                            Classical Skt. In Pali this rule is sometimes followed, sometimes not.

                            Mahinda

                            > *
                            > *
                            >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Noah Yuttadhammo
                            Dear Friends, I m working on the DhpA for Thai Pali studies, but I doubt I ll ever have time to take the exams. If it s not too much load on the group, I d be
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 23, 2009
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                              Dear Friends,

                              I'm working on the DhpA for Thai Pali studies, but I doubt I'll ever
                              have time to take the exams. If it's not too much load on the group,
                              I'd be happy to share my work here instead. Please let me know what you
                              think. Here's a sample:

                              manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa ti dutiyagaathaapi saavatthiya.myeva
                              ma.t.thaku.n.dali.m aarabbha bhaasitaa.

                              "manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa...", this second stanza was spoken in that
                              very same Saavatthi, referring to Ma.t.thaku.n.dali.

                              saavatthiya.m kira adinnapubbako naama braahma.no ahosi.

                              In Saavatthi, it is said that there lived a Brahman named Adinnapubbaka.

                              tena kassaci ki~nci na dinnapubba.m, tena ta.m ``adinnapubbako``tveva
                              sa~njaani.msu.

                              By him to anyone not a thing was ever (pubba) given (dinna). Because of
                              that, he was well-known as Adinnapubbaka.
                              [the second part here is active, but passive seems better in English]

                              tassa ekaputtako ahosi piyo manaapo.

                              [A boy] was his only son, beloved [and] heart-warming.
                              [The Thai takes manaapa to mean "causes the mind to become 'erp aap'"]

                              athassa pilandhana.m kaaretukaamo ``sace suva.n.nakaare kaaressaami,
                              bhattavetana.m daatabba.m bhavissatii``ti sayameva suva.n.na.m
                              ko.t.tetvaa ma.t.thaani ku.n.dalaani katvaa adaasi.

                              Then, desirous to have an ornament made for him, [thinking], "if I have
                              gold-makers make [one], meal-and-wages will have to be given," he made a
                              pair of polished (ma.t.tha) earrings (ku.n.dala), having beaten the gold
                              all by himself, and gave them [to his son].
                              [Thai has "suva.n.nakaarassaacikkhissaami"]

                              tenassa putto ma.t.thaku.n.dalii tveva pa~n~naayittha.

                              Because of that, [his] son became known as just "ma.t.thaku.n.dalii".
                            • Noah Yuttadhammo
                              Hey - I ve created a Cc:Betty conversation to give us a better way to follow this email and to share photos, files, and links. Just go
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                Hey - I've created a Cc:Betty conversation to give us a better way to follow this email and to share photos, files, and links.

                                Just go to:

                                http://ccbetty.com/d/13786

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                                Check out Cc:Betty - it's like Facebook for your email!


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Noah Yuttadhammo
                                Dear Mahinda, Thank you, that is quite clear. I was trying to ask as much... would paccaya then somehow be cognate to paccaagacchati ? Metta, Yuttadhammo
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                  Dear Mahinda,

                                  Thank you, that is quite clear. I was trying to ask as much... would
                                  paccaya then somehow be cognate to "paccaagacchati"?

                                  Metta,

                                  Yuttadhammo

                                  On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 08:16 +0530, Mahinda Palihawadana wrote:
                                  > On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear friends,
                                  > >
                                  > > this post is short, but it took me quite a while. I also reprint the first
                                  > > two lines of the verse.
                                  > >
                                  > > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
                                  > > Due to this and that action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;
                                  > >
                                  > > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
                                  > > due to the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.
                                  > >
                                  > * Dear Ong Yong Peng and others,*
                                  >
                                  > *The translation of this verse seems to have hit upon a rock!*
                                  >
                                  > *Having thought much about the matter, I venture to suggest a tentative
                                  > explanation.*
                                  >
                                  > *The author is here trying to define paccaya (affix) from its derivation.
                                  > The word is from pa.ti+aya. The latter (aya) is the noun from the root i-
                                  > to come. It is similar in derivation to pa.ticca, which famously means
                                  > dependent upon in the Pali language. (This word is pa.ti+cca. The part
                                  > cca is from t-ya-. This tya is used to form the absolutive of a root
                                  > which has a prefix added to it, as is pa.ti+i-. It is mandatory in Sanskrit,
                                  > but optional in Pali.*
                                  >
                                  > *From this derivation, the author takes the basic etymological meaning of
                                  > paccaya to be dependently coming or that which comes dependently. Then
                                  > he applies it to grammar as follows:*
                                  >
                                  > *(a) **Paccaya is that which comes (into function) dependent on such
                                  > factors as whether it is required to form a noun, a verb, a primary
                                  > derivative or a secondary derivative. (pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m entiiti
                                  > paccayaa: they are called paccayas because they come into function depending
                                  > on various factors);*
                                  >
                                  > *(b) ** Or else (atha vaa)*
                                  >
                                  > *Paccaya is that factor dependent on which the form of a word attains
                                  > completion (nipphatti: see PTSD s.v.) pa.ticca saddanipphatti ito etiiti
                                  > paccayaa: they are called paccayas because the completion of a word comes
                                  > dependently from this (source).*
                                  >
                                  > *Best regards.*
                                  > *Mahinda
                                  >
                                  > *
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                  ... No, not to paccaagacchati, which is pa.ti-aa-gacchati and means returns . As paccaya is pa.ti+aya , it is cognate with a paticca which is to be analysed
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 24, 2009
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                                    On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...>wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dear Mahinda,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you, that is quite clear. I was trying to ask as much... would
                                    > paccaya then somehow be cognate to "paccaagacchati"?
                                    >
                                    > Dear Ven. Y.,
                                    >

                                    No, not to paccaagacchati, which is pa.ti-aa-gacchati and means 'returns'.
                                    As paccaya is 'pa.ti+aya', it is cognate with a'paticca' which is to be
                                    analysed as 'pa.ti+i+cca' , i- being the root and -cca being the (extended)
                                    absolutive suffix. In usage it has almost lost the absolutive significance
                                    and carries the adverbial meaning
                                    'dependently'.


                                    To add a further comment on Aggava.msa�s etymology-based definition of
                                    �paccaya�, it appears that he attached great significance to the meaning of
                                    this word as �dependence� or �relationship�. His first definition seems to
                                    be based on the fact that in making words what affixes we use depends on
                                    what kind of form we want the words to have. If we want words to describe a
                                    past action we use affixes proper for past time. And so on. On the other
                                    hand, the second definition is based on the fact that even with all the
                                    other elements of a word (e.g., prefixes, root), we will not have a
                                    completed word without a terminating affix. So it is correct to say that the
                                    completion of the word depends on the �paccaya�. A �paccaya� cannot have
                                    meaning independently, nor can a prefix or root function in language (at
                                    least in a language like Pali), except in relationship with a �paccaya�.

                                    Best wishes.

                                    Mahinda


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