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Saddaniiti Chapter 1 (6)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, Sa`nkhepato pana duvidhaava naamapaccayo aakhyaatapaccayo caati. So, from the collection [given above], moreover, [is] the two-fold noun-suffix
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 21, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      Sa`nkhepato pana duvidhaava naamapaccayo aakhyaatapaccayo caati.
      So, from the collection [given above], moreover, [is] the two-fold noun-suffix and verb-suffix.

      * duvidhaava = du-vidhaa-eva

      Tatraapi aakhyaatapaccayaa duvidhaa vikara.napaccayanovikara.napaccayavasena.
      There, the verbal suffixes, two-fold too, [are] through the influence of vikara.na-suffix and non-vikara.na-suffix.

      Tattha vikara.napaccayo akaar-aadi-sattarasa-vidho agga-hita-g-gaha.nena pannarasa-vidho ca.
      There, the vikara.na-suffix [is] seventeen-fold akaar-and-so-on, and fifteen-fold with the foremost useful taking.

      Novikara.napaccayo pana kha cha saadi-neka-vidho.
      The non-vikara.na-suffix, however, kha, cha, sa-and-so-on [is] many-fold.

      Ye ruupa-nipphattiyaa upakaarakaa attha-visesassa jotakaa vaa ajotakaa vaa lopaniiyaa vaa alopaniiyaa vaa, te saddaa paccayaa.
      Those words, which [are] self-expanatory or not self-explanatory or suitable for elision or not suitable for elision, of a variety of meanings, from the effective endings of the form, are suffixes.

      * lopaniiya = lumpaniiya?

      Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
      Because each and every action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

      Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
      Because [of] the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.


      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      Project page: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, Thank you. ... N: I would translate sa`nkhepato: in short, in brief. ... N: Meanwhile I forgot what vikara.na is, perhaps it was explained
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 21, 2009
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        Dear Yong Peng,
        Thank you.
        Op 21-jun-2009, om 15:08 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

        > Sa`nkhepato pana duvidhaava naamapaccayo aakhyaatapaccayo caati.
        > So, from the collection [given above], moreover, [is] the two-fold
        > noun-suffix and verb-suffix.
        ------
        N: I would translate sa`nkhepato: in short, in brief.
        >
        > Y.P.: Tatraapi aakhyaatapaccayaa duvidhaa
        > vikara.napaccayanovikara.napaccayavasena.
        > There, the verbal suffixes, two-fold too, [are] through the
        > influence of vikara.na-suffix and non-vikara.na-suffix.
        ------
        N: Meanwhile I forgot what vikara.na is, perhaps it was explained
        already.
        --------
        >
        > Y.P.: Tattha vikara.napaccayo akaar-aadi-sattarasa-vidho agga-hita-
        > g-gaha.nena pannarasa-vidho ca.
        > There, the vikara.na-suffix [is] seventeen-fold akaar-and-so-on,
        > and fifteen-fold with the foremost useful taking.
        -------
        N: Is it possible to read aggahita as: a-gahita, not taken? From
        ga.nhati.
        -------
        >
        > Novikara.napaccayo pana kha cha saadi-neka-vidho.
        > The non-vikara.na-suffix, however, kha, cha, sa-and-so-on [is] many-
        > fold.
        >
        > Ye ruupa-nipphattiyaa upakaarakaa attha-visesassa jotakaa vaa
        > ajotakaa vaa lopaniiyaa vaa alopaniiyaa vaa, te saddaa paccayaa.
        > Those words, which [are] self-expanatory or not self-explanatory or
        > suitable for elision or not suitable for elision, of a variety of
        > meanings, from the effective endings of the form, are suffixes.
        >
        > * lopaniiya = lumpaniiya?
        -------
        N: I think both are correct. What should be elided.
        >
        > Y.P:Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
        > Because each and every action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;
        >
        > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
        > Because [of] the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.
        -------
        N: I am wondering whether it is said here that the 'n' is added
        before the suffix ti. The suffix is eti.
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Yong Peng & Nina, ... I agree with Nina in that sa nkhepato should be translated as in brief . The quote covered by ti at the end starts at
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 21, 2009
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          Dear Yong Peng & Nina,

          > Sa`nkhepato pana duvidhaava naamapaccayo aakhyaatapaccayo caati.
          > So, from the collection [given above], moreover, [is] the two-fold
          > noun-suffix and verb-suffix.

          I agree with Nina in that "sa'nkhepato" should be translated as "in brief".
          The quote covered by "ti" at the end starts at "naamapaccayo". It helps to
          think of a colon after "duvidhaava".

          Transl: But, in brief, it is of just two kinds: the noun suffix and the verb
          suffix.

          > * duvidhaava = du-vidhaa-eva

          correct

          > Tatraapi aakhyaatapaccayaa duvidhaa
          > vikara.napaccayanovikara.napaccayavasena.
          > There, the verbal suffixes, two-fold too, [are] through the influence of
          > vikara.na-suffix and non-vikara.na-suffix.

          Instead of "through the influence of", I would suggest "by way of".

          > Tattha vikara.napaccayo akaar-aadi-sattarasa-vidho agga-hita-g-gaha.nena
          > pannarasa-vidho ca.
          > There, the vikara.na-suffix [is] seventeen-fold akaar-and-so-on, and
          > fifteen-fold with the foremost useful taking.

          transl: Therein [among the verbal suffixes], the vikara.na suffix is of
          seventeen kinds beginning with the letter "a" and of fifteen kinds by not
          taking what is [already] included.

          I think the two vikara.nas left out in the count of 15 are: "a" and "o",
          both of which occur twice in the count of 17.

          > Novikara.napaccayo pana kha cha saadi-neka-vidho.
          > The non-vikara.na-suffix, however, kha, cha, sa-and-so-on [is] many-fold.
          >
          > Ye ruupa-nipphattiyaa upakaarakaa attha-visesassa jotakaa vaa ajotakaa vaa
          > lopaniiyaa vaa alopaniiyaa vaa, te saddaa paccayaa.
          > Those words, which [are] self-expanatory or not self-explanatory or
          > suitable for elision or not suitable for elision, of a variety of
          > meanings, from the effective endings of the form, are suffixes.

          I would avoid "words" for "saddaa" here since suffixes are most often not
          words but smaller units within words.

          transl: Suffixes are linguistic items which are helpful in the derivation
          (or formation) of a word-form, that show or do not show a distinction of
          meaning, or are to be elided or not to be elided.

          > * lopaniiya = lumpaniiya?

          not sure.

          > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
          > Because each and every action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

          The Pali seems to be giving a derivation of the word "paccayaa" which is
          made up of the prefix "pa.ti" plus the verbal root "i", a kit suffix "a"
          which I haven't yet identified, and a syaadi suffix. In "paccayaatha vaa",
          "atha vaa" (alternatively) should be read with the following line in the
          same verse. The meaning of the plural verb "enti" (from the root "i" (go))
          is not at all clear to me in this context. At the moment I'm working with
          "they follow". "pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m" could mean "going back to
          this or that reason or cause".

          > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
          > Because [of] the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.

          I wonder if we should read "pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m" here also for
          "pa.ticca".

          transl: [Alternatively,] going back [to this or that reason], the formation
          of a word follows from it.

          This seems to suggest a meaning of "condition" for "paccaya", i.e., the
          conditions involved in forming a word.

          Best wishes,
          Jim
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Nina and Jim, thank you for the corrections. Hence, 1. a-kaara-aadi-sattarasa-vidho; kaara (m) letter. 2. a-(g)-gahita-(g)-gaha.na: not taking what was
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 22, 2009
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            Dear Nina and Jim,

            thank you for the corrections.

            Hence,

            1. a-kaara-aadi-sattarasa-vidho; kaara (m) letter.
            2. a-(g)-gahita-(g)-gaha.na: not taking what was included.

            I will consider the final two lines with the remaining of the verse. I think in the future I will try to keep the verse together in one posting whenever possible.

            Jim, can you explain briefly vikara.na and non-vikara.na suffixes? Thank you.


            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

            > Tattha vikara.napaccayo akaar-aadi-sattarasa-vidho agga-hita-g-gaha.nena pannarasa-vidho ca.

            transl: Therein [among the verbal suffixes], the vikara.na suffix is of seventeen kinds beginning with the letter "a" and of fifteen kinds by not taking what is [already] included.

            I think the two vikara.nas left out in the count of 15 are: "a" and "o", both of which occur twice in the count of 17.

            > Pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m, entiiti paccayaatha vaa;
            > Because each and every action, the suffix now [is] "enti" or;

            The Pali seems to be giving a derivation of the word "paccayaa" which is made up of the prefix "pa.ti" plus the verbal root "i", a kit suffix "a" which I haven't yet identified, and a syaadi suffix. In "paccayaatha vaa", "atha vaa" (alternatively) should be read with the following line in the same verse. The meaning of the plural verb "enti" (from the root "i" (go)) is not at all clear to me in this context. At the moment I'm working with "they follow". "pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m" could mean "going back to this or that reason or cause".

            > Pa.ticca saddanipphatti, ito etiiti paccayaa.
            > Because [of] the word-ending, now "eti" [is] the suffix.

            I wonder if we should read "pa.ticca kaara.na.m ta.m ta.m" here also for "pa.ticca".

            transl: [Alternatively,] going back [to this or that reason], the formation of a word follows from it.

            This seems to suggest a meaning of "condition" for "paccaya", i.e., the conditions involved in forming a word.
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Yong Peng & Nina, ... The vikara.na suffixes are enumerated just slightly ahead in the section you re working on. These are conjugational signs that
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 22, 2009
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              Dear Yong Peng & Nina,

              > Jim, can you explain briefly vikara.na and non-vikara.na suffixes? Thank
              > you.

              The vikara.na suffixes are enumerated just slightly ahead in the section
              you're working on. These are conjugational signs that distinguish the eight
              classes of verbs in Aggava.msa's system. The suffix is added directly to the
              root, e.g,, bhuu + a > bhava to which we can then add the tense suffixes. In
              the verb "bhavati", we can see that the second "a" is the vikara.na suffix.

              The non-vikara.na suffixes are described in Pariccheda 25 on verbs. "kha" is
              found at sutta 906 and the example given there is "titikkhati" for the root
              "tij". An example with the suffix "cha" is "jigucchati" in sutta 907 for the
              root "gup" and for "sa", the example "vima.msati" is given at sutta 909 for
              the root "man". And there are non-vikara.na suffixes for desideratives and
              denominatives too. I'm not sure if we can include causatives and passives
              here also.

              Best wishes,
              Jim
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Jim, thank you for your help. ... N: I wonder about the term vikara.na: vikaroti is to change. And non- vikara.na. Or do they mean: regular and irregular?
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 23, 2009
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                Dear Jim,
                thank you for your help.
                Op 22-jun-2009, om 14:44 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

                > The vikara.na suffixes are enumerated just slightly ahead in the
                > section
                > you're working on. These are conjugational signs that distinguish
                > the eight
                > classes of verbs in Aggava.msa's system. The suffix is added
                > directly to the
                > root, e.g,, bhuu + a > bhava to which we can then add the tense
                > suffixes. In
                > the verb "bhavati", we can see that the second "a" is the vikara.na
                > suffix.
                -------
                N: I wonder about the term vikara.na: vikaroti is to change. And non-
                vikara.na. Or do they mean: regular and irregular?
                --------
                > J: The non-vikara.na suffixes are described in Pariccheda 25 on
                > verbs. "kha" is
                > found at sutta 906 and the example given there is "titikkhati" for
                > the root
                > "tij". An example with the suffix "cha" is "jigucchati" in sutta
                > 907 for the
                > root "gup" and for "sa", the example "vima.msati" is given at sutta
                > 909 for
                > the root "man". And there are non-vikara.na suffixes for
                > desideratives and
                > denominatives too. I'm not sure if we can include causatives and
                > passives
                > here also.
                --------
                N: These are more complicated to analyse.
                Nina.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim Anderson
                Dear Nina, ... No, I don t think so. Although vikara.na isn t in the PED, you can find a definition in Sanskrit dictionaries. Monier-Williams has the
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 23, 2009
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                  Dear Nina,

                  > N: I wonder about the term vikara.na: vikaroti is to change. And non-
                  > vikara.na. Or do they mean: regular and irregular?

                  No, I don't think so. Although "vikara.na" isn't in the PED, you can find a
                  definition in Sanskrit dictionaries. Monier-Williams has the following:

                  vi-karaNa 2. m. (for 1. » [p= 950,1]) " producing a change. " (in gram.) a
                  term for the affix or conjugational characteristic which is placed between
                  the root and terminations , the inserted conjugational affix (according to
                  pANini these affixes are zap , zapo luk , zlu , zyan , znu , za , znam , u ,
                  znA , yak , and cli [with its substitutes] , tAsi , sya , sip , the first
                  nine of which are added in the Pres. , Impf. , Imperative , and Potential ,
                  and before a kRt which contains a mute palatal z , in the case of Active
                  verbs ; yak is added in the case of the karman or bhAva i.e. Passives or
                  Neuters ; cli is added in the Aorist , tAsi in the 1st Future , sya in the
                  2nd Future and Conditional , and sip before leT. ; lug-vikaraNa , " having
                  luk for its vikaraNa " [said of roots of cl. 2.] ; AkhyAta-pada-vikaraNAH ,
                  " words which modify the finite verb " i.e. make it accented)

                  So it has a wider application in Sanskrit than in Pali. The term is also
                  found in the Kaccaayana and Moggallaana schools. It seems that
                  Aggava.msa doesn't use the term in his Suttamaala, preferring to use just
                  "paccaya" instead.

                  Best wishes,
                  Jim
                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                  It amazes me that Aggavamsa gives three paccayas (in this case ‘infixes’ rather than ‘suffixes’) to explain the formation of titikkhati, jigucchati
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 24, 2009
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                    It amazes me that Aggavamsa gives three paccayas (in this case �infixes�
                    rather than �suffixes�) to explain the formation of titikkhati, jigucchati
                    and viima.msati. All three words are desideratives, and one would expect to
                    find a single mechanism for the formation of the desiderative. If you look
                    at the Sanskrit equivalents (*titiik.sate*, *jugupsate,* *viima.msate*) you
                    find that they all have the infix �sa- and Sanskrit grammarians indeed say
                    that adding �sa- in this position is the way to make a desiderative verb.
                    What is more, if we follow the usual rules to transform these words from
                    Sanskrit into Pali, you get just these forms (titikkhati, jigucchati,
                    viima.msati). So it would be reasonable to assume that these words came into
                    Pali via older forms which are now preserved in Sanskrit. (We cannot say
                    that Sanskrit words have been reduced to Pali because that would be
                    historically inaccurate). We don�t then have to give three different
                    paccayas (kha, cha, sa) to form desideratives. We can say that in Pali too
                    the way to make desideratives is by adding the infix -sa- and that this is
                    often obscured due to phonological developments. Thus Aggavamsa�s �kha-
                    stands for �ksa- and �cha for �psa-. In the first instance the �k- is a
                    sandhi alternation of the �j- of the root tij- and in the second the-p- is
                    directly from the root gup- itself. It cannot be that Aggavamsa is unaware
                    of this. I wonder if his reason is that to explain Pali sadda-nipphatti
                    (morphology), one should not have to go to another language.
                    Mahinda


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Jim and Mahinda, Thank you for helping. Jim, I find all these examples very difficult, but it will come later as we progress. Mahinda, I was at first
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 24, 2009
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                      Dear Jim and Mahinda,
                      Thank you for helping. Jim, I find all these examples very
                      difficult, but it will come later as we progress.
                      Mahinda, I was at first puzzled about desideratives, but found an
                      explanation in Warder, Ch 30 (p. 353). This may help others who wonder.
                      Nina.
                      Op 24-jun-2009, om 17:20 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                      geschreven:

                      > It amazes me that Aggavamsa gives three paccayas (in this case
                      > �infixes�
                      > rather than �suffixes�) to explain the formation of titikkhati,
                      > jigucchati
                      > and viima.msati. All three words are desideratives, and one would
                      > expect to
                      > find a single mechanism for the formation of the desiderative.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Jim and Nina, thank you for the interesting discussion. I find that we are more used to grammars which enable us to read and use a dictionary, but less
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 24, 2009
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                        Dear Jim and Nina,

                        thank you for the interesting discussion. I find that we are more used to grammars which enable us to read and use a dictionary, but less familiar with grammars which help us to appreciate the mechanics and dynamics of a language, be it English, Pali or any other language.

                        Initially, I was puzzled with "The non-vikara.na-suffix, however, kha, cha, sa-and-so-on [is] many-fold." However, after Jim's clarification, I believe we are on the right track.

                        Please let me explain.

                        To have a word in Pali, more often we have

                        root (dhaatu) + suffix (paccaya) + inflectional ending (vibhatti)

                        Sometimes, instead of one suffix, we can also have a secondary suffix. I believe vikara.na refers to the 15 or 17 standard suffixes in the conjugation of active and passive verbs in various tenses and moods, and non-vikara.na refers to non-standard suffixes.

                        I do not think we are in any hurry to find an English word for vikara.na. On the other hand, I do think our study of Saddaniiti will further our appreciation of the Pali texts and the language in which they are written.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

                        Although "vikara.na" isn't in the PED, you can find a definition in Sanskrit dictionaries. Monier-Williams has the following:

                        vi-karaNa 2. m. (for 1. � [p= 950,1]) " producing a change. " (in gram.) a term for the affix or conjugational characteristic which is placed between the root and terminations , the inserted conjugational affix (according to pANini these affixes are zap , zapo luk , zlu , zyan , znu , za , znam , u , znA , yak , and cli [with its substitutes] , tAsi , sya , sip , the first nine of which are added in the Pres. , Impf. , Imperative , and Potential , and before a kRt which contains a mute palatal z , in the case of Active verbs ; yak is added in the case of the karman or bhAva i.e. Passives or Neuters ; cli is added in the Aorist , tAsi in the 1st Future , sya in the 2nd Future and Conditional , and sip before leT. ; lug-vikaraNa , " having luk for its vikaraNa " [said of roots of cl. 2.] ; AkhyAta-pada-vikaraNAH , " words which modify the finite verb " i.e. make it accented)

                        So it has a wider application in Sanskrit than in Pali. The term is also found in the Kaccaayana and Moggallaana schools. It seems that Aggava.msa doesn't use the term in his Suttamaala, preferring to use just "paccaya" instead.
                      • Jim Anderson
                        Dear Mahinda, Not only does Aggava.msa give these three paccayas, but also Kaccaayana (Kc 433) and Moggallaana (Mg V 1-3) in their respective grammars. I don t
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 25, 2009
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                          Dear Mahinda,

                          Not only does Aggava.msa give these three paccayas, but also Kaccaayana (Kc
                          433) and Moggallaana (Mg V 1-3) in their respective grammars. I don't think
                          in these particular examples you can call them desideratives. If you look at
                          the comparable Paa.ninian suutra 3: 1.5 there is no mention of the
                          desiderative for jugupsate, titik.sate, & cikitsati with the suffix "san".
                          The desideratives using the same three paccayas (kha cha sa) are described
                          at Sd 910 starting with the root "bhuj" and so on. The desiderative formed
                          from the root "bhuj" is "bubhukkhati" (= bhottum icchati -- he desires/wants
                          to eat).

                          Jim
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Saddaniiti Chapter 1 (6)


                          It amazes me that Aggavamsa gives three paccayas (in this case 'infixes'
                          rather than 'suffixes') to explain the formation of titikkhati, jigucchati
                          and viima.msati. All three words are desideratives, and one would expect to
                          find a single mechanism for the formation of the desiderative. If you look
                          at the Sanskrit equivalents (*titiik.sate*, *jugupsate,* *viima.msate*) you
                          find that they all have the infix -sa- and Sanskrit grammarians indeed say
                          that adding -sa- in this position is the way to make a desiderative verb.
                          What is more, if we follow the usual rules to transform these words from
                          Sanskrit into Pali, you get just these forms (titikkhati, jigucchati,
                          viima.msati). So it would be reasonable to assume that these words came into
                          Pali via older forms which are now preserved in Sanskrit. (We cannot say
                          that Sanskrit words have been reduced to Pali because that would be
                          historically inaccurate). We don't then have to give three different
                          paccayas (kha, cha, sa) to form desideratives. We can say that in Pali too
                          the way to make desideratives is by adding the infix -sa- and that this is
                          often obscured due to phonological developments. Thus Aggavamsa's -kha-
                          stands for -ksa- and -cha for -psa-. In the first instance the -k- is a
                          sandhi alternation of the -j- of the root tij- and in the second the-p- is
                          directly from the root gup- itself. It cannot be that Aggavamsa is unaware
                          of this. I wonder if his reason is that to explain Pali sadda-nipphatti
                          (morphology), one should not have to go to another language.
                          Mahinda
                        • Mahinda Palihawadana
                          ... Verbs given in Panini 3.1.5 (and 3.1.6) are desiderative in form but have (developed?) other meanings. Traditionally too it is so explained. This does not
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 25, 2009
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                            On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Mahinda,
                            >
                            > Not only does Aggava.msa give these three paccayas, but also Kaccaayana (Kc
                            >
                            > 433) and Moggallaana (Mg V 1-3) in their respective grammars. I don't think
                            >
                            > in these particular examples you can call them desideratives. If you look
                            > at
                            > the comparable Paa.ninian suutra 3: 1.5 there is no mention of the
                            > desiderative for jugupsate, titik.sate, & cikitsati with the suffix "san".
                            >


                            Verbs given in Panini 3.1.5 (and 3.1.6) are desiderative in form but have
                            (developed?) other meanings. Traditionally too it is so explained. This
                            does not negate the fact that Pali titikkha- and jiguccha- derive from
                            titiksa- (= ti-tij-sa) and jugupsa- in both of which the real �paccaya� is
                            �sa-. Pali grammarians do not acknowledge this. Instead they have enlarged
                            the list of �paccayas�, even going so far as to incorporate splinters of the
                            root in the �paccaya� (*kha* being from j+sa, *cha* from p+sa). Why? At
                            first I thought this was to save the student the trouble of going to another
                            language for the structure of a Pali word. But now I see an even more
                            formidable, ideological reason. A virtual roadblock. The Pali tradition has
                            it that Maagadhii (Pali language) is the �muulabhaasaa� ('root' or original
                            language) which the Buddha himself used. (Search CSCD under �muulabhaasaa�).
                            The very notion of derivation from an earlier linguistic stratum would then
                            be sacrilege.

                            Best wishes.

                            Mahinda


                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Mahinda, Jim and Nina, thank you for the interesting discussion on the non-vikara.na suffix. It is noteworthy to know the Pali grammarians creatively
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 26, 2009
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                              Dear Mahinda, Jim and Nina,

                              thank you for the interesting discussion on the non-vikara.na suffix. It is noteworthy to know the Pali grammarians creatively added a new category of suffixes which help their students in understanding Pali verbs without additional labour on Sanskrit. However, to make up any excuse, worse if it's an ideological one, to deny the further study of the subject, is unacceptable and also unthinkable. Even so, this is interesting to me. As an amateur sociologist, I am interested in the study of extreme ideas, especially political and religious ideologies, and their effects on various functions of society.

                              I have referred to Warder's Lesson 30 for the discussion of desiderative verbs. I note that in Charles Duroiselle's grammar §505, the author mentions -sa- to be the characteristic suffix for similar conjugation, very much as Mahinda has explained. However, in Ven. Buddhadatta's NPC3 Chapter 3, which we have just completed in another thread, he describes desiderative conjugation much similar to what we see here in Saddaniti. I believe it may all be a matter of preference, the choice of following the Pali or the Sanskrit tradition.

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/13640

                              I pick up the term "conjugational suffix" in Warder's as I browse through it. I think the term definitely refers to vikara.na, but not sure if it should also include novikara.na. The verb vikaroti, as Nina already noted, means change or alter. So, vikara.na literally means modifier. But, we have to proceed with Saddaniiti to arrive at a suitable English equivalent which makes sense in its grammatical context.

                              In Appendix 1 of his grammar, Steven Collins has novikara.na-paccaya simply as verbal suffix, which is not helpful in our discussion.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Mahinda Palihawadana wrote:

                              At first I thought this was to save the student the trouble of going to another language for the structure of a Pali word. But now I see an even more formidable, ideological reason. A virtual roadblock. The Pali tradition has it that Maagadhii (Pali language) is the 'muulabhaasaa' ('root' or original language) which the Buddha himself used. (Search CSCD under 'muulabhaasaa'). The very notion of derivation from an earlier linguistic stratum would then be sacrilege.
                            • Jim Anderson
                              Dear Yong Peng, Mahinda, and Nina,
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 27, 2009
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                                Dear Yong Peng, Mahinda, and Nina,

                                << thank you for the interesting discussion on the non-vikara.na suffix. It
                                is noteworthy to know the Pali grammarians creatively added a new category
                                of suffixes which help their students in understanding Pali verbs without
                                additional labour on Sanskrit. However, to make up any excuse, worse if it's
                                an ideological one, to deny the further study of the subject, is
                                unacceptable and also unthinkable. Even so, this is interesting to me. As an
                                amateur sociologist, I am interested in the study of extreme ideas,
                                especially political and religious ideologies, and their effects on various
                                functions of society. >>

                                J:
                                In considering the two kinds of verbal suffixes (vikara.na and novikara.na)
                                as stated by Aggava.msa, I would think that the category "novikara.na" is a
                                catch-all to include the remaining verbal suffixes, excluding the 17
                                vikara.na ones. So it seems that we might include among the novikara.na
                                suffixes the tense-suffixes (tyaadivibhattis -- the 96 beginning with the
                                3rd person sing,, present tense vibhatti suffix "ti"). I think translating
                                "paccaya" as "suffix" is fine. "affix" is another possibility but it is not
                                as familiar as "suffix" to most. In the traditional grammar we will see that
                                original suffixes are often replaced by substitutes (aadesas) and I wonder
                                if these substitutes can be called suffixes as well. We would also have to
                                find out if the term "aagamas" (inserted letters or augments) might be
                                considered as "paccayas". E.g., is the aagama "i" in "bhaasita.m" also a
                                suffix?

                                << I have referred to Warder's Lesson 30 for the discussion of desiderative
                                verbs. I note that in Charles Duroiselle's grammar §505, the author
                                mentions -sa- to be the characteristic suffix for similar conjugation, very
                                much as Mahinda has explained. However, in Ven. Buddhadatta's NPC3 Chapter
                                3, which we have just completed in another thread, he describes desiderative
                                conjugation much similar to what we see here in Saddaniti. I believe it may
                                all be a matter of preference, the choice of following the Pali or the
                                Sanskrit tradition.

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/13640

                                I pick up the term "conjugational suffix" in Warder's as I browse through
                                it. I think the term definitely refers to vikara.na, but not sure if it
                                should also include novikara.na. The verb vikaroti, as Nina already noted,
                                means change or alter. So, vikara.na literally means modifier. But, we have
                                to proceed with Saddaniiti to arrive at a suitable English equivalent which
                                makes sense in its grammatical context.

                                In Appendix 1 of his grammar, Steven Collins has novikara.na-paccaya simply
                                as verbal suffix, which is not helpful in our discussion. >>

                                J:
                                I think you're right in taking "vikara.na" as meaning modifier. But that
                                seems to be the case with all suffixes in general. Maybe it is better to
                                leave the term "vikara.na" untranslated. With a translation like
                                "conjugational suffix", we're still left in doubt as to whether it includes
                                any or all of the novikara.na suffixes.

                                I'd like to bring attention to an interesting fact I recently noticed about
                                the derivation of the verb "viima.msati" and the noun "viima.msaa".
                                Apparently, the Sanskrit equivalents are "miimaa.msati" and "miimaa.msaa".
                                The "m" is changed to a "v" according to Sd 944. Up until now, I had always
                                thought the "vii-" was the prefix "vi" with the "i" lengthened. Btw, the
                                reduplicative syllable at the beginning of the desideratives is called
                                "abbhaasa".

                                I think it's important for those who are inclined to be skeptical of the
                                traditional Pali grammars to at least give them the benefit of the doubt.
                                The grammars have so much to offer in furthering our understanding of the
                                Pali language and studying them is like studying with the masters
                                themselves.

                                Best wishes,
                                Jim
                              • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                ... Dear Ong, Jim and others, Personally, I am (now) inclined to think it is the ideological factor that has been predominant. It had become a religious
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 27, 2009
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                                  On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Dear Yong Peng, Mahinda, and Nina,
                                  >
                                  > << thank you for the interesting discussion on the non-vikara.na suffix.
                                  > It
                                  > is noteworthy to know the Pali grammarians creatively added a new category
                                  > of suffixes which help their students in understanding Pali verbs without
                                  > additional labour on Sanskrit. However, to make up any excuse, worse if
                                  > it's
                                  > an ideological one, to deny the further study of the subject, is
                                  > unacceptable and also unthinkable. Even so, this is interesting to me. As
                                  > an
                                  > amateur sociologist, I am interested in the study of extreme ideas,
                                  > especially political and religious ideologies, and their effects on various
                                  > functions of society. >>
                                  >

                                  Dear Ong, Jim and others,

                                  Personally, I am (now) inclined to think it is the ideological factor that
                                  has been predominant. It had become a religious belief, a di.t.hi., so not
                                  really Buddhistic.(There is somewhere the idea that a child kept isolated
                                  from socity would start to speak Maagadhii.) But we know such things happen,
                                  with the best of intentions. Hindus called Sanskrit the language of gods.
                                  I entirely agree with Jim that the traditional grammars are valuable and
                                  absolutely deserve to be studied.They are indispensable.The only point I
                                  have been making is that for a 'scientific' (as opposed to a 'practical')
                                  understanding of the Pali language, the historical perspective is important.
                                  Comparison with Sanskrit often (though not always) provides that perspecive.
                                  This is because all other ancient Prakrits have vanished.

                                  As for Ong's point about the proper words to translate vikara.na, almost all
                                  modern writers have used "conjugational sign". This is appropriate because
                                  we start conjugating a verb after preparing a 'stem' by, among other
                                  things, adding the vikarana to the root;and the vikara.na defines the gana
                                  or the group or class to which the root belongs. The second group, the
                                  adaadi ga.na however does not add a vikara.na to prepare the stem, i.e., the
                                  root and stem are the same.

                                  Mahinda


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Jim and Mahinda, thank you. We are definitely not trying to cook up a controversy here. It is, as Jim suggests, also possible that muulabhaasaa has a
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 27, 2009
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                                    Dear Jim and Mahinda,

                                    thank you. We are definitely not trying to cook up a controversy here. It is, as Jim suggests, also possible that 'muulabhaasaa' has a more gentle definition. By the time of Aggavamsa (12th century CE), Pali should already be in decline in India. However, the glorious days of Pali are still evident in Ashoka's inscriptions, for example. The idea of Pali as the 'muulabhaasaa' should have developed at a time much earlier than Aggavamsa, and probably, as Mahinda suggests, for good intentions. However, we should not discount the possibility of a Pali (or Prakrit) supremacy ideology at one time in India. This, of course, may be the result of popular secular beliefs, and not entirely Buddhist. Let's leave the "hard work" of further analysis and study to the historians, and just focus on Pali. ;-)

                                    We are privileged to inherit the excellent works of the classical Pali grammarians, and we conduct our study on the shoulders of giants. It is from the study of these works that we can further our understanding of Pali. We should also keep in perspective the historical development of Buddhism and the Pali language in the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere, and take a balanced approach to certain cultural elements which may have persisted in these works.

                                    As for vikara.na, I like Jim's suggestion to retain its Pali, or adopt it into our English translations, even though I have no doubt our understanding of the term will increase as we progress through the classic.

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.


                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Mahinda Palihawadana wrote:

                                    Personally, I am (now) inclined to think it is the ideological factor that has been predominant. It had become a religious belief, a di.t.hi., so not really Buddhistic.(There is somewhere the idea that a child kept isolated from socity would start to speak Maagadhii.) But we know such things happen, with the best of intentions. Hindus called Sanskrit the language of gods. I entirely agree with Jim that the traditional grammars are valuable and absolutely deserve to be studied.They are indispensable.The only point I have been making is that for a 'scientific' (as opposed to a 'practical') understanding of the Pali language, the historical perspective is important. Comparison with Sanskrit often (though not always) provides that perspecive. This is because all other ancient Prakrits have vanished.
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Dear Mahinda, Op 28-jun-2009, om 5:43 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende ... N: You have given before examples from Sanskrit and I found these helpful. I
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 28, 2009
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                                      Dear Mahinda,
                                      Op 28-jun-2009, om 5:43 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                                      geschreven:

                                      > The only point I
                                      > have been making is that for a 'scientific' (as opposed to a
                                      > 'practical')
                                      > understanding of the Pali language, the historical perspective is
                                      > important.
                                      > Comparison with Sanskrit often (though not always) provides that
                                      > perspecive.
                                      > This is because all other ancient Prakrits have vanished.
                                      -------
                                      N: You have given before examples from Sanskrit and I found these
                                      helpful. I am certainly looking forward to all your valuable remarks
                                      about Saddaniiti.

                                      Nina.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • gunnargallmo@yahoo.se
                                      http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto ...
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 28, 2009
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                                        http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
                                        http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto

                                        --- Den sön 2009-06-28 skrev Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>:

                                        <Personally, I am (now) inclined to think it is the ideological factor that has been predominant. It had become a religious belief, a di.t.hi., so not really Buddhistic.( There is somewhere the idea that a child kept isolated from socity would start to speak Maagadhii.)>

                                        I think I read once about an experiment carried out somewhere in Europe, when a child was actually isolated from birth to see if he would start speaking Hebrew (which, in the Judeo-Christian tradition of the time, was supposed to be the language of God himself).

                                        Which the child didn't.

                                        He didn't start speaking Pali either, nor Sanskrit.

                                        He didn't start speaking at all.

                                        Gunnar


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                                        Sök och jämför priser hos Kelkoo.
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                                      • thomaslaw03
                                        Dear Pali friends, I am looking for Pali text reading (not chanting) in DVD/CD/MP3 format. I can find different traditions of Pali chanting (singing style) on
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 30, 2009
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                                          Dear Pali friends,

                                          I am looking for Pali text reading (not chanting) in DVD/CD/MP3 format. I can find different traditions of Pali chanting (singing style) on the Internet, but am unable to find any, just a text (such as Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) reading. Such as a text reading sound can help people how to read a Pali text properly in term of pronunciation and meaning. Does anyone know of this reading? Any advice?

                                          Thank you.

                                          Thomas Law
                                        • Nina van Gorkom
                                          Dear Thomas, ... N: This is from Ria s letter (grasje) to a newbie, can you try this: For hearing the words spoken out aloud go to http://www.tipitaka.net/
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 1, 2009
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                                            Dear Thomas,
                                            Op 1-jul-2009, om 8:11 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:

                                            > Such as a text reading sound can help people how to read a Pali
                                            > text properly in term of pronunciation and meaning. Does anyone
                                            > know of this reading? Any advice?
                                            -------
                                            N: This is from Ria's letter (grasje) to a newbie, can you try this:

                                            For hearing the words spoken out aloud go to http://www.tipitaka.net/
                                            pali/andy/palwvm.htm
                                            or http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                            At the bottom of the page, under miscellaneous, paliwvm.zip

                                            Nina.



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • grasje
                                            Dear Thomas, for whole texts, not just single words, go to http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm Cclick pali lessons (on the left), click 3:readings
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jul 2, 2009
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                                              Dear Thomas,

                                              for whole texts, not just single words, go to
                                              http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm
                                              Cclick pali lessons (on the left), click 3:readings in pali text (in english) (on the right)
                                              and you can hear the whole dhammapada in pali, plus some devotional texts.


                                              Kind regards,

                                              Ria Glas

                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dear Thomas,
                                              > Op 1-jul-2009, om 8:11 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven:
                                              >
                                              > > Such as a text reading sound can help people how to read a Pali
                                              > > text properly in term of pronunciation and meaning. Does anyone
                                              > > know of this reading? Any advice?
                                              > -------
                                              > N: This is from Ria's letter (grasje) to a newbie, can you try this:
                                              >
                                              > For hearing the words spoken out aloud go to http://www.tipitaka.net/
                                              > pali/andy/palwvm.htm
                                              > or http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                              > At the bottom of the page, under miscellaneous, paliwvm.zip
                                              >
                                              > Nina.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • ardavarz
                                              ... Dear Thomas and all, I had some problems with my account, so I couldn t reply earlier, but I thought it would be well to share what I have found here:
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jul 4, 2009
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                                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear Pali friends,
                                                >
                                                > I am looking for Pali text reading (not chanting) in DVD/CD/MP3 format. I can find different traditions of Pali chanting (singing style) on the Internet, but am unable to find any, just a text (such as Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) reading. Such as a text reading sound can help people how to read a Pali text properly in term of pronunciation and meaning. Does anyone know of this reading? Any advice?
                                                >
                                                > Thank you.
                                                >
                                                > Thomas Law
                                                >

                                                Dear Thomas and all,

                                                I had some problems with my account, so I couldn't reply earlier, but I thought it would be well to share what I have found here:
                                                http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/programs/pali-class-online.html
                                                There are readings of Pali texts by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi from Gair and Karunatilleke's "New Course in Reading Pali" which could be helpful for those studying it. (This is really reading, not chanting.)

                                                Metta,
                                                Ardavarz
                                              • dhammatrust
                                                ... Dear Ardavarz, What an auspicious find!!! I have spent weeks looking for lessons on the Pali language and routinely hit roadblocks. I then read this
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jul 7, 2009
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                                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "ardavarz" <ardavarz@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Pali friends,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am looking for Pali text reading (not chanting) in DVD/CD/MP3 format. I can find different traditions of Pali chanting (singing style) on the Internet, but am unable to find any, just a text (such as Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) reading. Such as a text reading sound can help people how to read a Pali text properly in term of pronunciation and meaning. Does anyone know of this reading? Any advice?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thank you.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thomas Law
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Thomas and all,
                                                  >
                                                  > I had some problems with my account, so I couldn't reply earlier, but I thought it would be well to share what I have found here:
                                                  > http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/programs/pali-class-online.html
                                                  > There are readings of Pali texts by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi from Gair and Karunatilleke's "New Course in Reading Pali" which could be helpful for those studying it. (This is really reading, not chanting.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Metta,
                                                  > Ardavarz
                                                  >
                                                  Dear Ardavarz,

                                                  What an auspicious find!!! I have spent weeks looking for lessons on the Pali language and routinely hit roadblocks. I then read this message and what I have been looking for is provided on a silver platter. Thank You so much. I will be downloading all of the MP3 files and storing them. I would recommend others doing the same thing before this dhamma disappears like some of the others.

                                                  Thanks Again.

                                                  Jeff
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