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Re: [Pali] Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Lennart, I understand your point of view. Perhaps I can add a few things. ... N: I would like to consider more precisely what these five khandhas are:
    Message 1 of 97 , Jun 12, 2009
      Dear Lennart,
      I understand your point of view. Perhaps I can add a few things.
      Op 11-jun-2009, om 17:30 heeft Lennart Lopin het volgende geschreven:

      > I guess it boils down to this: Every of these so-called "cetasikas" or
      > other abhidhamma elements could be boiled down to the 5 groups of
      > graspings (or six sense experience or dependent origination)
      -------
      N: I would like to consider more precisely what these five khandhas
      are: ruupakkhandha: all ruupas, including, visible object, sound.
      They are part of daily life and occur now. The same in the case of
      the other khandhas. Vi~n~naa.nakkhandha: seeing occurring now is
      vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. No self sees, but seeing sees. The Buddha taught
      the truth of non-self. He taught this in all parts of the Tipi.taka.
      Sometimes by way of conventional truth, speaking of persons,
      sometimes by way of the khandhas which are nothing else but naama and
      ruupa, or: by way of citta, cetasika and ruupa.

      --------
      >
      > L: In your above statement it seems you talk about vinyana-and nama
      > rupa.
      > Isn't the language the Buddha uses a very pragmatic one? So when
      > trying to describe what happens to us when we embark on an insight
      > journey the Buddha would use these terms but when talking about jhana
      > he would use other (not that subtle) terms.
      -------
      N: I agree, his language is very pragmatic. Always helping people to
      understand the truth of anattaa, no matter whether it concerns our
      conduct in society, the development of insight or the development of
      jhaana.
      Whatever citta arises, kusala, akusala or neither kusala nor akusala
      (avyaakata dhamma), it is a conditioned dhamma, an element, devoid of
      self. This is true for the citta that develops insight and the citta
      that develops jhaana. Also the jhaanacitta should not be taken for
      self, it is citta accompanied by specific cetasikas. The terms citta
      and cetasika always refer to daily life.
      From birth (pa.tisandhicitta) until death (cuticitta) we are
      propelled forward by avijjaa and ta.nhaa. Kamma causes our birth and
      kamma produces results during life in the form of pleasant or
      unpleasant experiences through the senses. There are gain and loss,
      honour and dishonour. What matter is; how do we react towards these
      experiences? With ignorance or with understanding?
      The Buddha taught the way to lessen ignorance. We learn through the
      Abhidhamma that our action and speech that seem noble and good may
      often be motivated by defilements such as conceit, or selfish desire
      to gain something. This may be unnoticed, but through the Abhidhamma
      we learn the deepest motives of our action and speech. Is it not a
      gain to have less ignorance?

      I understand that the Buddha has a twofold manner of teaching:

      the Co in Pali to M.N.5, No Blemishes, about paramatthadesana:
      Buddhassa Bhagavato duvidhaa desanaa:
      sammuttidesanaa, paramatthadesanaa caa ti.

      There is a twofold teaching of the Buddha, the Blessed One: the teaching
      in the conventional way and the teaching by way of ultimate realities.

      Tattha puggalo, satto, itthii, puriso, khattiyo, braama.no, devo,
      Maaro ti
      evaruupa sammutidesanaa.

      There is a human, a being, a woman, a man, a man of the warrior caste, a
      brahman, a god, and Mara. Such is the teaching in the conventional way.

      Anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani,
      satipa.t.thaanaa ti evaruupaa paramattha desanaa.

      Impermanence, dukkha, anattaa, the aggregates, elements, sensefields,
      satipa.t.thaana. Such is the teaching by way of ultimate realities.

      Tattha Bhagavaa, ye sammutivasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m
      pa.tivijjhitvaa
      moha.m pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m sammuti desana.m
      deseti.

      Here the Blessed One taught to those in the conventional way who by
      means
      of it, after having heard the teaching , penetrated the meaning and
      abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to attain distinction.

      Ye pana paramatthavasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m pa.tivijjhitvaa moha.m
      pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m paramatthadesana.m deseti.

      But who by means of ultimate realities after having heard the teaching ,
      penetrated the meaning and abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to
      attain
      distinction, to those he taught by way of ultimate realities. <end
      quote>
      ********************
      From the Potthapada Sutta:
      �....these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech,
      designations in
      common use in the world, which the Tathagata uses without
      misapprehending
      them,� (DN 9, Potthapada Sutta: States of consciousness, 53, Walshe
      trans.)

      The footnote (224) to M.Walshe�s translation adds:

      �...In MA (ad MN 5: Anagana Sutta). the following verse is quoted...:
      �Two
      truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: Conventional and
      ultimate - no third can be. Terms agreed by usage of the world; Words of
      ultimate significance are true In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a
      Teacher, he Who�s skilled in this world�s speech , can use it, and not
      lie.�
      ---------
      N: Thus, there is, as you will agree, there are samutti sacca, and
      parama.t.tha sacca. Samutti sacca points to parama.t.tha sacca in
      using pa~n~nattis, concepts.
      I think we find these two kinds of truths all the time, in each of
      the three parts of the pi.takas. At first hand suttas with
      conventional truth seem easy reading, but then we forget the deeper
      meaning explained by means of conventional terms. We do not get the
      deep message taught by the Buddha.
      -------
      Nina.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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