Re: [Pali] Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)
- Dear Lennart,
I understand your point of view. Perhaps I can add a few things.
Op 11-jun-2009, om 17:30 heeft Lennart Lopin het volgende geschreven:
> I guess it boils down to this: Every of these so-called "cetasikas" or-------
> other abhidhamma elements could be boiled down to the 5 groups of
> graspings (or six sense experience or dependent origination)
N: I would like to consider more precisely what these five khandhas
are: ruupakkhandha: all ruupas, including, visible object, sound.
They are part of daily life and occur now. The same in the case of
the other khandhas. Vi~n~naa.nakkhandha: seeing occurring now is
vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. No self sees, but seeing sees. The Buddha taught
the truth of non-self. He taught this in all parts of the Tipi.taka.
Sometimes by way of conventional truth, speaking of persons,
sometimes by way of the khandhas which are nothing else but naama and
ruupa, or: by way of citta, cetasika and ruupa.
> L: In your above statement it seems you talk about vinyana-and nama
> Isn't the language the Buddha uses a very pragmatic one? So when
> trying to describe what happens to us when we embark on an insight
> journey the Buddha would use these terms but when talking about jhana
> he would use other (not that subtle) terms.
N: I agree, his language is very pragmatic. Always helping people to
understand the truth of anattaa, no matter whether it concerns our
conduct in society, the development of insight or the development of
Whatever citta arises, kusala, akusala or neither kusala nor akusala
(avyaakata dhamma), it is a conditioned dhamma, an element, devoid of
self. This is true for the citta that develops insight and the citta
that develops jhaana. Also the jhaanacitta should not be taken for
self, it is citta accompanied by specific cetasikas. The terms citta
and cetasika always refer to daily life.
From birth (pa.tisandhicitta) until death (cuticitta) we are
propelled forward by avijjaa and ta.nhaa. Kamma causes our birth and
kamma produces results during life in the form of pleasant or
unpleasant experiences through the senses. There are gain and loss,
honour and dishonour. What matter is; how do we react towards these
experiences? With ignorance or with understanding?
The Buddha taught the way to lessen ignorance. We learn through the
Abhidhamma that our action and speech that seem noble and good may
often be motivated by defilements such as conceit, or selfish desire
to gain something. This may be unnoticed, but through the Abhidhamma
we learn the deepest motives of our action and speech. Is it not a
gain to have less ignorance?
I understand that the Buddha has a twofold manner of teaching:
the Co in Pali to M.N.5, No Blemishes, about paramatthadesana:
Buddhassa Bhagavato duvidhaa desanaa:
sammuttidesanaa, paramatthadesanaa caa ti.
There is a twofold teaching of the Buddha, the Blessed One: the teaching
in the conventional way and the teaching by way of ultimate realities.
Tattha puggalo, satto, itthii, puriso, khattiyo, braama.no, devo,
There is a human, a being, a woman, a man, a man of the warrior caste, a
brahman, a god, and Mara. Such is the teaching in the conventional way.
Anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani,
satipa.t.thaanaa ti evaruupaa paramattha desanaa.
Impermanence, dukkha, anattaa, the aggregates, elements, sensefields,
satipa.t.thaana. Such is the teaching by way of ultimate realities.
Tattha Bhagavaa, ye sammutivasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m
moha.m pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m sammuti desana.m
Here the Blessed One taught to those in the conventional way who by
of it, after having heard the teaching , penetrated the meaning and
abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to attain distinction.
Ye pana paramatthavasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m pa.tivijjhitvaa moha.m
pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m paramatthadesana.m deseti.
But who by means of ultimate realities after having heard the teaching ,
penetrated the meaning and abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to
distinction, to those he taught by way of ultimate realities. <end
From the Potthapada Sutta:
�....these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech,
common use in the world, which the Tathagata uses without
them,� (DN 9, Potthapada Sutta: States of consciousness, 53, Walshe
The footnote (224) to M.Walshe�s translation adds:
�...In MA (ad MN 5: Anagana Sutta). the following verse is quoted...:
truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: Conventional and
ultimate - no third can be. Terms agreed by usage of the world; Words of
ultimate significance are true In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a
Teacher, he Who�s skilled in this world�s speech , can use it, and not
N: Thus, there is, as you will agree, there are samutti sacca, and
parama.t.tha sacca. Samutti sacca points to parama.t.tha sacca in
using pa~n~nattis, concepts.
I think we find these two kinds of truths all the time, in each of
the three parts of the pi.takas. At first hand suttas with
conventional truth seem easy reading, but then we forget the deeper
meaning explained by means of conventional terms. We do not get the
deep message taught by the Buddha.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,
thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.
Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.
I will simply put everything together:
"(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"
such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order
hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
for the significance and essence of the meaning
* Paraphrasing ...
"dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.
> I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
> here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
> of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
> comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
> "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
> resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
> members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
> gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
> "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).