Re: [Pali] Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)
- Dear Yong Peng and Lennart,
Op 7-jun-2009, om 3:31 heeft Lennart Lopin het volgende geschreven:
> Like a bird first has to exert--------
> itself and later has not to exert itself. In the same way is the
> vitakko and the spreading of wings is vicaro (Petakopadesa,
> Khuddaka Nikaya,
> PTS p. 142)
N: Usually vitakka and vicaara arise together. Except in the case of
the second jhana of the fivefold system. Then vitakka (which is more
coarse) is abandoned, but vicaara still accompoanies the jhaanacitta.
Some meditators can abandon vitakka and vicaara at the second stage
of jhaana, and for them there are four stages of jhaana. That is the
meaning of the fourfold system or the fivefold system of jhaana.
The dictionaries give many translations of vitakka and vicaara and it
depends on the individual which word he prefers. Most important is to
understand their different characteristics and functions.
We should not be misled by the word 'thinking' as we use it in
Different similes are used to show the characteristics and functions
of these two cetasikas. They accompany citta and perform their
functions just for the exteremely short duration of one citta. They
arise and fall away together with the citta they accompany. When we
read the similes it seems that first vitakka arises and then vicaara,
but this is not so. The similes merely show their differences.
Each citta experiences an object. Vitakka hits or touches the object
and vicaara keeps the citta anchored on that object, but only for one
short moment. They assist the citta in knowing its object, just for
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- Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,
thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.
Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.
I will simply put everything together:
"(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"
such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order
hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
for the significance and essence of the meaning
* Paraphrasing ...
"dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.
> I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
> here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
> of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
> comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
> "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
> resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
> members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
> gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
> "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).