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Re: [Pali] Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Yong Peng and Lennart, ... N: Usually vitakka and vicaara arise together. Except in the case of the second jhana of the fivefold system. Then vitakka
    Message 1 of 97 , Jun 10, 2009
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      Dear Yong Peng and Lennart,
      Op 7-jun-2009, om 3:31 heeft Lennart Lopin het volgende geschreven:

      > Like a bird first has to exert
      > itself and later has not to exert itself. In the same way is the
      > exertion
      > vitakko and the spreading of wings is vicaro (Petakopadesa,
      > Khuddaka Nikaya,
      > PTS p. 142)
      --------
      N: Usually vitakka and vicaara arise together. Except in the case of
      the second jhana of the fivefold system. Then vitakka (which is more
      coarse) is abandoned, but vicaara still accompoanies the jhaanacitta.
      Some meditators can abandon vitakka and vicaara at the second stage
      of jhaana, and for them there are four stages of jhaana. That is the
      meaning of the fourfold system or the fivefold system of jhaana.
      The dictionaries give many translations of vitakka and vicaara and it
      depends on the individual which word he prefers. Most important is to
      understand their different characteristics and functions.
      We should not be misled by the word 'thinking' as we use it in
      conventional language.
      Different similes are used to show the characteristics and functions
      of these two cetasikas. They accompany citta and perform their
      functions just for the exteremely short duration of one citta. They
      arise and fall away together with the citta they accompany. When we
      read the similes it seems that first vitakka arises and then vicaara,
      but this is not so. The similes merely show their differences.
      Each citta experiences an object. Vitakka hits or touches the object
      and vicaara keeps the citta anchored on that object, but only for one
      short moment. They assist the citta in knowing its object, just for
      that moment.
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
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        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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