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Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear DC and Lennart, thank you. That is helpful. While there is a possible tug between whose words is the best, I guess we can all better spend time sharing
    Message 1 of 97 , Jun 8, 2009
      Dear DC and Lennart,

      thank you. That is helpful. While there is a possible tug between whose words is the best, I guess we can all better spend time sharing and discussing this intelligently.

      vitakka (m) thought, thinking.
      savitakka (adj) exerting a thought on the meditation subject.

      vicaara (m) deliberation.
      savicaara (adj) making repeated thoughts on the subject.

      According to Lennart's explanation, vicaara is to stick to the subject but less strenuous?


      metta,
      Yong Peng.

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote:

      My understanding of vitakka, vicara, reading Sinhala books and translations is as follows:

      vitakka: just a thought about the meditationsubject.
      vicaara: thoughts related to the meditation subject

      These words seem to occur almost always in connection with Jhaana. I cannot therefore comment on them with knowledge or experience.

      Hope this  view also helps.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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