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Re: savitakka, savicaara - AN2.2 Adhikara.na Vagga (3)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Nina, thank you. Ven. Buddhadatta gives the following in the Concise Pali-English Dictionary: vicaara (m) investigation, management, planning. vitakka (m)
    Message 1 of 97 , Jun 6, 2009
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      Dear Nina,

      thank you.

      Ven. Buddhadatta gives the following in the Concise Pali-English Dictionary:
      vicaara (m) investigation, management, planning.
      vitakka (m) reflexion, thought.
      savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.

      Ven. Nyanatiloka has the following in the Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines:
      vicaara: discursive thinking.
      vitakka: thought, thought-conception.
      vitakka-vicaara: thought-conception and discursive thinking, (or applied and sustained thought).

      PTS PED has the following:
      vicaara (m) investigation, examination, consideration, deliberation.
      vitakka (m) reflection, thought, thinking; "initial application" (vitakka is often combd with vicāra or "initial & sustained application" Mrs. Rh. D.; Cpd. 282; "reflection & investigation" Rh. D.; to denote the whole of the mental process of thinking.)
      savicaara (adj) accompanied by investigation.
      savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.

      F.L.Woodward (PTS 1995) has for his translation:
      savicaara (adj) accompanied by sustained thought.
      savitakka (adj) accompanied by directed thought.

      The prefix 'sa' is another form of 'sa.m', meaning with, together, possessed of, having.

      I suppose vitakka-vicaara as "reasoning and investigation" is a more literal translation of the compound, and does not exactly describe the experience of the meditator. I agree that "applied and sustained thinking", or even "focused and maintained awareness" is more adequate. What do you think?

      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

      > savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.
      > savicaara (adj) accompanied by investigation.

      Usually the jhaanafactors of vitakka and vicaara are translated as applied thinking and sustained thinking. They are factors accompanying the lower stages of jhaana. They are still needed, the meditator has to 'think' of the meditation subject in order to be absorbed. But later on he can abandon these coarse factors, and then jhaana is more refined.

      Adding from the commentary: there are different reasons for cultivating jhaana, such as becoming concentrated, as basis for developing miraculous powers, but here: as basis for vipassanaa. He emerges from jhaana and considers all conditioned dhammas, their causes and conditions until he has attained arahatship. The commentator speaks about lokiya jhaana and lokuttara jhaana.

      N: Lokuttara jhaana accompanies lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan, thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings,
      Message 97 of 97 , Jun 14, 2010
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        Dear Nina, Jim and Bryan,

        thanks for your informed discussion. It is very interesting to note how the commentary uses bya~njana twice with different meanings, something I also noted to happen frequently in Sadd., a test of the intellect.

        Also thanks to Bryan for highlighting "padabya~njana" as "letters and words", or we may still be lost in translation.

        I will simply put everything together:

        dunnikkhitta~nca padabya~njananti
        "(and) incorrectly arranged letter(s) and/or word(s)"

        uppa.tipaa.tiyaa gahitapaa.lipadameva
        such a word of the text taken out of sequence/order

        hi atthassa bya~njanattaa
        for the significance and essence of the meaning

        bya~njananti
        "bya~njana.m"

        vuccati
        is called

        * Paraphrasing ...

        "dunnikkhitta.m padabya~njana.m" is such a word of the text taken out of sequence, for the significance and essence of the meaning is called "bya~njana.m".


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        I still have trouble with the translation, but I wait for Yong Peng.

        > I don't think "letter" is the right translation for "bya~njana.m"
        > here which is explained by "atthassa bya~njanattaa" (from the fact
        > of explaining the meaning). Cf. "saattha.m sabya~njana.m". The
        > comment: "padameva. . . bya~njananti" tells me that
        > "padabya~njana.m" is a specific type of kammadhaaraya compound that
        > resolves with the particle "eva" after the first member (both
        > members are in the same case). I also think "uppa.tipaa.tiyaa
        > gahita-" (incorrectly or erroneously taken) is an interpretation of
        > "dunnikkhitta.m" (badly laid or put down).
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