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Re: [Pali] Saddaniiti: introductory verses 9 to 13

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. See below. ... 10 ... the ... In verse 11, there is the term sappa~n~naa which I translate as the wise and it would
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 2, 2009
      Dear Nina,

      Thanks for your comments. See below.

      > > yasmaa caamohabhaavena, akkharesu padesu ca.
      > > paa.liyattha.m vijaananti, vi~n~nuu sugatasaasane..
      > >
      > > and because, with the existence of non-confusion about the letters
      > > and words,
      > > the learned know the meaning of the Paali in the Sugata's Saasana,
      10
      > >
      > > Mahinda:
      > > > Wherefore, due to (that) freedom from confusion, wise persons in
      the
      > > > Buddha Saasana, understand (correctly) the meaning of texts;
      > >
      > > JA: I differ from Mahinda's "wise persons in the Buddha Saasana"
      > > compared to my "the meaning of the Pali in the Sugata's Saasana".
      > > I don't disagree with Mahinda's interpretation and would find it
      > > difficult to decide on which if only one of them can be correct.
      > --------
      > N: I am considering ther word vi~n~nuu. I think that it does not
      > refer to the learned in Paali grammar. I am thinking of this text:<
      > svaakkhaato bhagavataa dhammo sandi.t.thiko akaaliko ehipassiko
      > opanayiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhii>ti .This is about wise
      > persons who have attained enlightenment and experienced nibbaana.
      > To me wise persons refer to those who understand the truth directly.
      > Those who practise in accordance with the dhamma (dhammanudhamma).
      > They penetrate the true meaning of the texts.

      In verse 11, there is the term "sappa~n~naa" which I translate as "the
      wise" and it would seem odd to translate "vi~n~nuu" as "the wise"
      also. Buddhaghosa (Vism VII.85) has an interesting gloss on
      "vi~n~nuuhi" in the passage you quote (svaakkhaato. . .), i.e.,
      "sabbehi pi uggha.tita~n~nuu-aadiihi vi~n~nuuhi". There is a sutta at
      A II 135 that states four types of individuals called the
      uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu, neyyo, & padaparamo. Detailed
      explanations can be found in the commentaries at Mp III 131 and Pp-a
      222-3. I think the first three types can also apply to sappa~n~nas
      because they are capable of attaining arahatta while the padaparamo
      would have to be excluded for not having that capability in his
      present life. Perhaps Aggava.msa makes the same distinction by
      including the padaparamo in "vi~n~nuu" but not in "sappa~n~naa"? I
      think it is important for anyone who wishes to understand the proper
      meaning of the Pali texts to know the grammar or the characteristic(s)
      of the linguistic entities (saddalakkha.na) in the Pali language. Even
      in Kaccayana the first sutta has it that the meaning is correctly
      known only through the letters (attho akkharasa~n~naato -- Kc 1).

      > This fits in with the following words:
      > paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
      > sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..
      >
      > (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
      > in the Teacher's Saasana,
      > the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11
      >
      > yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
      > paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..
      >
      > having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane
      state
      > by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
      > ------
      > N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
      > purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right
      understanding
      > of realities, by insight.

      I would like to revise the second line to:
      "by means of the purified (or pure) practice beginning with virtue."

      Also, in verse 13, "grasp carefully" should be changed to "grasp
      well". "saadhuka.m" is glossed as "su.t.thu" (well, thoroughly) in
      commentaries..

      Best,
      Jim
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Jim, thank you for your reply. I have to think over a few things. ... N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to arahatship. As to pada
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 3, 2009
        Dear Jim,
        thank you for your reply. I have to think over a few things.
        Op 2-jun-2009, om 19:15 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

        > In verse 11, there is the term "sappa~n~naa" which I translate as "the
        > wise" and it would seem odd to translate "vi~n~nuu" as "the wise"
        > also. Buddhaghosa (Vism VII.85) has an interesting gloss on
        > "vi~n~nuuhi" in the passage you quote (svaakkhaato. . .), i.e.,
        > "sabbehi pi uggha.tita~n~nuu-aadiihi vi~n~nuuhi". There is a sutta at
        > A II 135 that states four types of individuals called the
        > uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu, neyyo, & padaparamo. Detailed
        > explanations can be found in the commentaries at Mp III 131 and Pp-a
        > 222-3. I think the first three types can also apply to sappa~n~nas
        > because they are capable of attaining arahatta while the padaparamo
        > would have to be excluded for not having that capability in his
        > present life.
        -------
        N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to
        arahatship. As to pada paramo, I think he is wise also, he is well on
        the way, although he does not attain enlightenment in that life. I am
        inclined to give pada a wider meaning, not just the letter.
        I agree that for the translation we have to find another word for
        sappa~n~naa. Not easy since there are many degrees of pa~n~naa. It
        can be intellectual understanding of the teachings, and also direct
        understanding acquired through insight. We could choose discernment,
        insight, sagacity (I am looking at the Book of Analysis, para 525
        which gives many synonyms).
        -------
        > J: Perhaps Aggava.msa makes the same distinction by
        > including the padaparamo in "vi~n~nuu" but not in "sappa~n~naa"?
        -------
        N: I am looking at the context: sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti,
        pa.tipattimatandikaa. It is closely connected with the practice
        leading to direct understanding. He understands 'the letter and the
        spirit'.
        ---------

        > J: I
        > think it is important for anyone who wishes to understand the proper
        > meaning of the Pali texts to know the grammar or the characteristic(s)
        > of the linguistic entities (saddalakkha.na) in the Pali language. Even
        > in Kaccayana the first sutta has it that the meaning is correctly
        > known only through the letters (attho akkharasa~n~naato -- Kc 1).
        ------
        N: This is a strong text. I wonder what the word only is in Pali.
        Someone may be very clever and know all the details of the grammar,
        all the prefixes, suffixes. But still, he may be lacking in
        something. Each part of the teachings points to the practice,
        awareness and understanding of all realities. This is indispensable
        for the understanding of the deep meaning of the texts.
        >
        > J: > This fits in with the following words:
        > > paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
        > > sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..
        > >
        > > (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
        > > in the Teacher's Saasana,
        > > the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11
        > >
        > > yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
        > > paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..
        > >
        > > having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane
        > state
        > > by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
        > > ------
        > > N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
        > > purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right
        > understanding
        > > of realities, by insight.
        >
        > Jim: I would like to revise the second line to:
        > "by means of the purified (or pure) practice beginning with virtue."
        >
        > Also, in verse 13, "grasp carefully" should be changed to "grasp
        > well". "saadhuka.m" is glossed as "su.t.thu" (well, thoroughly) in
        > commentaries..
        --------
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Nina, ... on ... am ... J: I prefer the wise for sappa~n~naa and the learned for vi~n~nuu . Notice also vi~n~nuuhi in its context in verse 13.
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 3, 2009
          Dear Nina,

          > N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to
          > arahatship. As to pada paramo, I think he is wise also, he is well
          on
          > the way, although he does not attain enlightenment in that life. I
          am
          > inclined to give pada a wider meaning, not just the letter.
          > I agree that for the translation we have to find another word for
          > sappa~n~naa. Not easy since there are many degrees of pa~n~naa. It
          > can be intellectual understanding of the teachings, and also direct
          > understanding acquired through insight. We could choose discernment,
          > insight, sagacity (I am looking at the Book of Analysis, para 525
          > which gives many synonyms).

          J: I prefer "the wise" for "sappa~n~naa" and "the learned" for
          "vi~n~nuu". Notice also "vi~n~nuuhi" in its context in verse 13. After
          some more checking, I now think the two terms are synonymous along
          with "dhiirehi" at the beginning of the verses. At Abh 227-9 you will
          find 25 synonyms for "a wise person" including our three in the verses
          plus -viyattassa in verse 6. Also, there is the term
          "pariyattaabhiyuttaviduu" further on in the Saddaniiti and "-viduu" is
          yet another synonym for a wise or learned person.

          I like your comments on the padaparamo and have to agree that that one
          is possessed of wisdom too.

          Jim
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