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Re: [Pali] Saddaniiti: introductory verses 9 to 13

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Jim and Mahinda, Thank you both. Very interesting to compare two translations. ... N: I am considering ther word vi~n~nuu. I think that it does not refer
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 2, 2009
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      Dear Jim and Mahinda,
      Thank you both. Very interesting to compare two translations.
      Op 1-jun-2009, om 16:39 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

      > yasmaa caamohabhaavena, akkharesu padesu ca.
      > paa.liyattha.m vijaananti, vi~n~nuu sugatasaasane..
      >
      > and because, with the existence of non-confusion about the letters
      > and words,
      > the learned know the meaning of the Paali in the Sugata's Saasana, 10
      >
      > Mahinda:
      > > Wherefore, due to (that) freedom from confusion, wise persons in the
      > > Buddha Saasana, understand (correctly) the meaning of texts;
      >
      > JA: I differ from Mahinda's "wise persons in the Buddha Saasana"
      > compared to my "the meaning of the Pali in the Sugata's Saasana".
      > I don't disagree with Mahinda's interpretation and would find it
      > difficult to decide on which if only one of them can be correct.
      --------
      N: I am considering ther word vi~n~nuu. I think that it does not
      refer to the learned in Paali grammar. I am thinking of this text:<
      svaakkhaato bhagavataa dhammo sandi.t.thiko akaaliko ehipassiko
      opanayiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhii>ti .This is about wise
      persons who have attained enlightenment and experienced nibbaana.
      To me wise persons refer to those who understand the truth directly.
      Those who practise in accordance with the dhamma (dhammanudhamma).
      They penetrate the true meaning of the texts.

      This fits in with the following words:
      paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
      sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..

      (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
      in the Teacher's Saasana,
      the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11

      yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
      paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..

      having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane state
      by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
      ------
      N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
      purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right understanding
      of realities, by insight.

      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim Anderson
      Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. See below. ... 10 ... the ... In verse 11, there is the term sappa~n~naa which I translate as the wise and it would
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 2, 2009
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        Dear Nina,

        Thanks for your comments. See below.

        > > yasmaa caamohabhaavena, akkharesu padesu ca.
        > > paa.liyattha.m vijaananti, vi~n~nuu sugatasaasane..
        > >
        > > and because, with the existence of non-confusion about the letters
        > > and words,
        > > the learned know the meaning of the Paali in the Sugata's Saasana,
        10
        > >
        > > Mahinda:
        > > > Wherefore, due to (that) freedom from confusion, wise persons in
        the
        > > > Buddha Saasana, understand (correctly) the meaning of texts;
        > >
        > > JA: I differ from Mahinda's "wise persons in the Buddha Saasana"
        > > compared to my "the meaning of the Pali in the Sugata's Saasana".
        > > I don't disagree with Mahinda's interpretation and would find it
        > > difficult to decide on which if only one of them can be correct.
        > --------
        > N: I am considering ther word vi~n~nuu. I think that it does not
        > refer to the learned in Paali grammar. I am thinking of this text:<
        > svaakkhaato bhagavataa dhammo sandi.t.thiko akaaliko ehipassiko
        > opanayiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhii>ti .This is about wise
        > persons who have attained enlightenment and experienced nibbaana.
        > To me wise persons refer to those who understand the truth directly.
        > Those who practise in accordance with the dhamma (dhammanudhamma).
        > They penetrate the true meaning of the texts.

        In verse 11, there is the term "sappa~n~naa" which I translate as "the
        wise" and it would seem odd to translate "vi~n~nuu" as "the wise"
        also. Buddhaghosa (Vism VII.85) has an interesting gloss on
        "vi~n~nuuhi" in the passage you quote (svaakkhaato. . .), i.e.,
        "sabbehi pi uggha.tita~n~nuu-aadiihi vi~n~nuuhi". There is a sutta at
        A II 135 that states four types of individuals called the
        uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu, neyyo, & padaparamo. Detailed
        explanations can be found in the commentaries at Mp III 131 and Pp-a
        222-3. I think the first three types can also apply to sappa~n~nas
        because they are capable of attaining arahatta while the padaparamo
        would have to be excluded for not having that capability in his
        present life. Perhaps Aggava.msa makes the same distinction by
        including the padaparamo in "vi~n~nuu" but not in "sappa~n~naa"? I
        think it is important for anyone who wishes to understand the proper
        meaning of the Pali texts to know the grammar or the characteristic(s)
        of the linguistic entities (saddalakkha.na) in the Pali language. Even
        in Kaccayana the first sutta has it that the meaning is correctly
        known only through the letters (attho akkharasa~n~naato -- Kc 1).

        > This fits in with the following words:
        > paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
        > sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..
        >
        > (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
        > in the Teacher's Saasana,
        > the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11
        >
        > yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
        > paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..
        >
        > having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane
        state
        > by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
        > ------
        > N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
        > purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right
        understanding
        > of realities, by insight.

        I would like to revise the second line to:
        "by means of the purified (or pure) practice beginning with virtue."

        Also, in verse 13, "grasp carefully" should be changed to "grasp
        well". "saadhuka.m" is glossed as "su.t.thu" (well, thoroughly) in
        commentaries..

        Best,
        Jim
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Jim, thank you for your reply. I have to think over a few things. ... N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to arahatship. As to pada
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 3, 2009
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          Dear Jim,
          thank you for your reply. I have to think over a few things.
          Op 2-jun-2009, om 19:15 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

          > In verse 11, there is the term "sappa~n~naa" which I translate as "the
          > wise" and it would seem odd to translate "vi~n~nuu" as "the wise"
          > also. Buddhaghosa (Vism VII.85) has an interesting gloss on
          > "vi~n~nuuhi" in the passage you quote (svaakkhaato. . .), i.e.,
          > "sabbehi pi uggha.tita~n~nuu-aadiihi vi~n~nuuhi". There is a sutta at
          > A II 135 that states four types of individuals called the
          > uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu, neyyo, & padaparamo. Detailed
          > explanations can be found in the commentaries at Mp III 131 and Pp-a
          > 222-3. I think the first three types can also apply to sappa~n~nas
          > because they are capable of attaining arahatta while the padaparamo
          > would have to be excluded for not having that capability in his
          > present life.
          -------
          N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to
          arahatship. As to pada paramo, I think he is wise also, he is well on
          the way, although he does not attain enlightenment in that life. I am
          inclined to give pada a wider meaning, not just the letter.
          I agree that for the translation we have to find another word for
          sappa~n~naa. Not easy since there are many degrees of pa~n~naa. It
          can be intellectual understanding of the teachings, and also direct
          understanding acquired through insight. We could choose discernment,
          insight, sagacity (I am looking at the Book of Analysis, para 525
          which gives many synonyms).
          -------
          > J: Perhaps Aggava.msa makes the same distinction by
          > including the padaparamo in "vi~n~nuu" but not in "sappa~n~naa"?
          -------
          N: I am looking at the context: sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti,
          pa.tipattimatandikaa. It is closely connected with the practice
          leading to direct understanding. He understands 'the letter and the
          spirit'.
          ---------

          > J: I
          > think it is important for anyone who wishes to understand the proper
          > meaning of the Pali texts to know the grammar or the characteristic(s)
          > of the linguistic entities (saddalakkha.na) in the Pali language. Even
          > in Kaccayana the first sutta has it that the meaning is correctly
          > known only through the letters (attho akkharasa~n~naato -- Kc 1).
          ------
          N: This is a strong text. I wonder what the word only is in Pali.
          Someone may be very clever and know all the details of the grammar,
          all the prefixes, suffixes. But still, he may be lacking in
          something. Each part of the teachings points to the practice,
          awareness and understanding of all realities. This is indispensable
          for the understanding of the deep meaning of the texts.
          >
          > J: > This fits in with the following words:
          > > paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
          > > sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..
          > >
          > > (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
          > > in the Teacher's Saasana,
          > > the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11
          > >
          > > yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
          > > paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..
          > >
          > > having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane
          > state
          > > by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
          > > ------
          > > N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
          > > purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right
          > understanding
          > > of realities, by insight.
          >
          > Jim: I would like to revise the second line to:
          > "by means of the purified (or pure) practice beginning with virtue."
          >
          > Also, in verse 13, "grasp carefully" should be changed to "grasp
          > well". "saadhuka.m" is glossed as "su.t.thu" (well, thoroughly) in
          > commentaries..
          --------
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Nina, ... on ... am ... J: I prefer the wise for sappa~n~naa and the learned for vi~n~nuu . Notice also vi~n~nuuhi in its context in verse 13.
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 3, 2009
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            Dear Nina,

            > N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to
            > arahatship. As to pada paramo, I think he is wise also, he is well
            on
            > the way, although he does not attain enlightenment in that life. I
            am
            > inclined to give pada a wider meaning, not just the letter.
            > I agree that for the translation we have to find another word for
            > sappa~n~naa. Not easy since there are many degrees of pa~n~naa. It
            > can be intellectual understanding of the teachings, and also direct
            > understanding acquired through insight. We could choose discernment,
            > insight, sagacity (I am looking at the Book of Analysis, para 525
            > which gives many synonyms).

            J: I prefer "the wise" for "sappa~n~naa" and "the learned" for
            "vi~n~nuu". Notice also "vi~n~nuuhi" in its context in verse 13. After
            some more checking, I now think the two terms are synonymous along
            with "dhiirehi" at the beginning of the verses. At Abh 227-9 you will
            find 25 synonyms for "a wise person" including our three in the verses
            plus -viyattassa in verse 6. Also, there is the term
            "pariyattaabhiyuttaviduu" further on in the Saddaniiti and "-viduu" is
            yet another synonym for a wise or learned person.

            I like your comments on the padaparamo and have to agree that that one
            is possessed of wisdom too.

            Jim
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