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Re: Saddniiti: introductory verses 7 & 8

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  • dhammadhiro
    would you please me to give some advice 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is
    Message 1 of 16 , May 5, 2009
      would you please me to give some advice
      1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
      2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
      3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice, is known.'

      best regards
      Dhammadhiro


      aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
      aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..

      With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
      in the Dispensation;
      and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
      attainment of the truths; 7

      saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
      pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

      and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
      practice;
      and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
      scriptures.





      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
      >
      > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
      > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
      > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
      > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
      > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
      >
      > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
      > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
      >
      > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
      > in the Dispensation;
      > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
      > attainment of the truths; 7
      >
      > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
      > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
      >
      > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
      > practice;
      > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
      > scriptures. 8
      >
      > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
      > PED).
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Jim, Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more thoughts. ... N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know. ... N:
      Message 2 of 16 , May 6, 2009
        Dear Jim,
        Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more
        thoughts.
        Op 5-mei-2009, om 4:29 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
        > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding. It is
        > related to the verb 'pariyaapu.naati' -- to fully acquire or master
        > (the scriptures).
        -------
        N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know.
        -------
        > J: Pariyatti is where we start, I think, and it relates to
        > getting to the point where we don't get confused about the letters and
        > the words and are able to focus more and more on the meaning of the
        > Buddha's teachings.
        --------
        N: Perhaps knowing the letter and the meaning (the letter and the
        spirit). With yoniso manasikaara.
        --------
        > J: Verses 9 to 12 describe the process of going from
        > pariyatti to the supramundane state. At the beginning of verse 9 there
        > is the term 'pariyattabhiyuttaana.m' which I think means: of/for
        > experts in the scriptures who understand the characteristic of the
        > language.
        --------
        N: True, we are dependent on language, on words to understand the
        teachings. For instance, we read about cakkhu dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu,
        cakkhuvi~n~naa.na dhaatu. When I hear the word characteristic,
        lakkha.na, I think of direct experience, not having to name
        realities. There has to be yoniso manasikaara of the actual seeing
        and visible object in order to become vi~n~nuu, someone with
        understanding. What is seen, visible object, is only a dhaatu, not a
        person. But it takes long to truly realize this. Pariyatti is
        difficult for all of us. We keep on perceiving persons the whole day.
        But that is thinking, not seeing.
        ---------
        > J: Verse 10 then goes on to describe the vi~n~nuus who
        > understand the meaning of the scriptures, and finally in verses 11 &
        > 12 we meet the sappa~n~nas who follow the path and go on to reach the
        > supramundane.
        --------
        N:I like your description. Thus, pariyatti is more than just reading
        the scriptures, what is met with in the texts has to be related to
        our life now. Only thus pariyatti can develop into pa.tipatti, the
        practice of vipassanaa/satipa.t.thaana.

        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Dhammadhiro, ...
        Message 3 of 16 , May 6, 2009
          Dear Dhammadhiro,

          > would you please me to give some advice

          << 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of
          saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in
          general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense? >>

          Yes, 'dispensation' is the translation for 'saasana'. This came about
          from Mahinda's suggestion of 'for the benefit of the Dispensation'
          rather than my 'for the benefit of the Teaching' for 'saasanattha.m'
          in verse 6. ~Na.namoli also translates 'dispensation' for 'saasana' in
          his Path of Purification', I agree that 'dispensation' is rather odd
          and we need to come up with something better. And 'Teachings' does
          sound better. 'Dispensation' seems to suggest the dispensing of the
          teachings like a chemist dispensing medicine.

          << 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
          saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
          destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the
          truths' >>

          My feeling is that this would upset the order from top to bottom. It
          would be more plausible if saccaadhigama were placed first but we have
          aasavakkhayalabha instead. Also, keep in mind the term 'khii.naasavo'
          for one whose aasavas are destroyed. I don't think I've ever come
          acroos the term 'saccaadhigato' as a term for one who has arruved at
          the truths.

          << 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
          translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
          practice, is known.' >>

          Okay, I'll keep that one in mind.

          Best wishes,
          Jim
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the commentarial definitions of pariyatti and had even posted the following from the
          Message 4 of 16 , May 6, 2009
            Dear Mahinda,

            Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the
            commentarial definitions of 'pariyatti' and had even posted the
            following from the .tiikaa on Abh 784 a few months ago:

            "pariyatti pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti
            is the vinaya, abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered".

            My problem lies with translations such as 'scriptural learning' (you
            did translate it as 'textual learning') and I find this rather
            different from it being translated simply as 'the scriptures' or 'the
            texts'. I'm considering changing my translation of verse 8d from:
            "supported by competence in the scriptures." to "supported by the
            Scriptures." (i.e the teachings as preserved in the Scriptures or the
            Tipi.taka).

            Jim

            > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Jim Anderson
            <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:
            > >
            > > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding.
            > >
            >
            > Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD
            under
            > 'pariyattiiti' and you will get a number of defining references.
            Most of
            > them say "pariyattiiti tii.ni pi.takaani". A comment in Anguttara
            > Commentary goes further and says that Pariyatti means the three
            Pitakas
            > plus the commentaries. It is an entirely Buddhist usage. The
            Sanskrit
            > equivalent paryaapti is not used in this sense in Hindu literature.
            > PTSD has a fair explanation of the evolution of the term, from
            'mastery' to
            > "what is matered". (In olden times learning by heart and what has
            been
            > learnt by heart.)
            >
            > Mahinda
          • P G Dave
            *re. saasana *I would think saasana expresses a combination of the three concepts of teaching, training and discipline. I can t think of a perfect synonym in
            Message 5 of 16 , May 7, 2009
              *re. saasana

              *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
              teaching, training and discipline.
              I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.

              metta,
              PG

              On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > would you please me to give some advice
              > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
              > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is
              > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
              > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
              > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction
              > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
              > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
              > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice,
              > is known.'
              >
              > best regards
              > Dhammadhiro
              >
              >
              > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
              > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
              >
              > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
              > in the Dispensation;
              > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
              > attainment of the truths; 7
              >
              > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
              >
              > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
              > practice;
              > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
              > scriptures.
              >
              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
              > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
              > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
              > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
              > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
              > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
              > >
              > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
              > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
              > >
              > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
              > > in the Dispensation;
              > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
              > > attainment of the truths; 7
              > >
              > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
              > >
              > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
              > > practice;
              > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
              > > scriptures. 8
              > >
              > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
              > > PED).
              > >
              > > Best wishes,
              > > Jim
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lennart Lopin
              Gospel (literally) ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would be a perfect fit, see below... ========================== PED:
              Message 6 of 16 , May 8, 2009
                "Gospel" (literally)

                ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would
                be a perfect fit, see below...


                ==========================
                PED:
                ....susāsanaŋ dussānaŋ J i.239 (English transl.: "true and false doctrine,"
                "good and bad news")....
                http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.pali.35009

                Etym of gospel:
                O.E. godspel "good news," from god "good" + spel "story, message,"
                translation of L. bona adnuntiatio, itself a translation of Gk.
                euangelion "reward
                for bringing good news." First element of the O.E. word had a long "o," but
                it shifted under mistaken assoc. with God. Gospel-gossip was Addison's word
                ("Spectator," 1711) for "one who is always talking of sermons, texts, etc."
                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gospel
                =============================================

                This would capture

                a.) Teaching
                b.) Message (worthy)
                c.) Training, a message to be put in practice
                d.) qualities of a "dispensation", "tradition" even "religion"

                ...but not really a serious consideration, given the many associations which
                people follow first, rather than thinking of a words etymology, :-)

                Lennart

                On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:08 AM, P G Dave <pgd2507@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > *re. saasana
                >
                > *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
                > teaching, training and discipline.
                > I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.
                >
                > metta,
                > PG
                >
                >
                > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...<dhammadhiro%40yahoo.com>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > would you please me to give some advice
                > > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
                > > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that
                > is
                > > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
                > > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                > > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
                > destruction
                > > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
                > > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                > > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
                > practice,
                > > is known.'
                > >
                > > best regards
                > > Dhammadhiro
                > >
                > >
                > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                > >
                > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                > > in the Dispensation;
                > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                > > attainment of the truths; 7
                > >
                > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                > >
                > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                > > practice;
                > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                > > scriptures.
                > >
                > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> <Pali%
                > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                > > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
                > > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
                > > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
                > > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
                > > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
                > > >
                > > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                > > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                > > >
                > > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                > > > in the Dispensation;
                > > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                > > > attainment of the truths; 7
                > > >
                > > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                > > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                > > >
                > > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                > > > practice;
                > > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                > > > scriptures. 8
                > > >
                > > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
                > > > PED).
                > > >
                > > > Best wishes,
                > > > Jim
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • DC Wijeratna
                sabbapaapasssa akarana.m ..... eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice. In later texts, the
                Message 7 of 16 , May 11, 2009
                  sabbapaapasssa akarana.m .....
                  eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m

                  The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice.
                  In later texts, the meaning might have got expanded.
                  �D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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