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Re: [Pali] Saddniiti: introductory verses 7 & 8

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Mahinda, Thank you for your interpretation of mata.m as a PPP which you also suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is the
    Message 1 of 16 , May 5, 2009
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      Dear Mahinda,

      Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
      suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
      the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
      PPP to function grammatically. I still think that taking 'mata.m' as
      an action-noun in the neuter has some justification (it is possible to
      have two or more valid interpretatons of the same Pali word like the
      'suta.m' in 'eva.m me suta.m'. In Cone's entry for 'adhigama' some of
      the other meanings given besides 'attainment' are 'understanding' and
      'realisation' -- so I don't think it's incorrect to state that the
      attainment of the truths is an understanding. Although Aggava.msa has
      'saccaadhigamana.m' in v. 8a, I think the meaning can be taken as
      exactly the same as the 'saccaadhigama-' in v. 7d.

      Best wishes,
      Jim


      > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
      > > .
      > >
      > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
      > > practice
      > >
      >
      > Dear Jim,
      > I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb.
      Grammatically
      > "saccaadhigama.m .... mata.m (hoti)." The meaning would be "The
      attainment
      > of truths is known (or regarded or understood) to be based on
      practice."
      >
      > Regards.
      >
      > Mahinda
    • dhammadhiro
      would you please me to give some advice 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is
      Message 2 of 16 , May 5, 2009
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        would you please me to give some advice
        1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
        2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
        3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice, is known.'

        best regards
        Dhammadhiro


        aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
        aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..

        With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
        in the Dispensation;
        and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
        attainment of the truths; 7

        saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
        pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

        and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
        practice;
        and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
        scriptures.





        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
        >
        > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
        > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
        > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
        > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
        > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
        >
        > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
        > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
        >
        > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
        > in the Dispensation;
        > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
        > attainment of the truths; 7
        >
        > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
        > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
        >
        > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
        > practice;
        > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
        > scriptures. 8
        >
        > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
        > PED).
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Jim
        >
      • Mahinda Palihawadana
        ... Dear Jim, But even in the example you quote eva.m me suta.m , isn t the verb to be not implied, although it is not physically there? Another common
        Message 3 of 16 , May 5, 2009
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          On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 5:53 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > Dear Mahinda,
          >
          > Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
          > suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
          > the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
          > PPP to function grammatically.
          >

          Dear Jim,

          But even in the example you quote "eva.m me suta.m", isn't the verb 'to be'
          not implied, although it is not 'physically' there? Another common example
          is kata.m kara.niiya.m :"done (is) what has to done".

          Certainly, there can be different interpretations. I only indicated what
          seems to me to be the more likely sense.

          Sorry I forgot all about the earlier communication. Apologies - and regards.

          Mahinda

          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Jim, Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more thoughts. ... N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know. ... N:
          Message 4 of 16 , May 6, 2009
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            Dear Jim,
            Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more
            thoughts.
            Op 5-mei-2009, om 4:29 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
            > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding. It is
            > related to the verb 'pariyaapu.naati' -- to fully acquire or master
            > (the scriptures).
            -------
            N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know.
            -------
            > J: Pariyatti is where we start, I think, and it relates to
            > getting to the point where we don't get confused about the letters and
            > the words and are able to focus more and more on the meaning of the
            > Buddha's teachings.
            --------
            N: Perhaps knowing the letter and the meaning (the letter and the
            spirit). With yoniso manasikaara.
            --------
            > J: Verses 9 to 12 describe the process of going from
            > pariyatti to the supramundane state. At the beginning of verse 9 there
            > is the term 'pariyattabhiyuttaana.m' which I think means: of/for
            > experts in the scriptures who understand the characteristic of the
            > language.
            --------
            N: True, we are dependent on language, on words to understand the
            teachings. For instance, we read about cakkhu dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu,
            cakkhuvi~n~naa.na dhaatu. When I hear the word characteristic,
            lakkha.na, I think of direct experience, not having to name
            realities. There has to be yoniso manasikaara of the actual seeing
            and visible object in order to become vi~n~nuu, someone with
            understanding. What is seen, visible object, is only a dhaatu, not a
            person. But it takes long to truly realize this. Pariyatti is
            difficult for all of us. We keep on perceiving persons the whole day.
            But that is thinking, not seeing.
            ---------
            > J: Verse 10 then goes on to describe the vi~n~nuus who
            > understand the meaning of the scriptures, and finally in verses 11 &
            > 12 we meet the sappa~n~nas who follow the path and go on to reach the
            > supramundane.
            --------
            N:I like your description. Thus, pariyatti is more than just reading
            the scriptures, what is met with in the texts has to be related to
            our life now. Only thus pariyatti can develop into pa.tipatti, the
            practice of vipassanaa/satipa.t.thaana.

            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Dhammadhiro, ...
            Message 5 of 16 , May 6, 2009
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              Dear Dhammadhiro,

              > would you please me to give some advice

              << 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of
              saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in
              general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense? >>

              Yes, 'dispensation' is the translation for 'saasana'. This came about
              from Mahinda's suggestion of 'for the benefit of the Dispensation'
              rather than my 'for the benefit of the Teaching' for 'saasanattha.m'
              in verse 6. ~Na.namoli also translates 'dispensation' for 'saasana' in
              his Path of Purification', I agree that 'dispensation' is rather odd
              and we need to come up with something better. And 'Teachings' does
              sound better. 'Dispensation' seems to suggest the dispensing of the
              teachings like a chemist dispensing medicine.

              << 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
              saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
              destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the
              truths' >>

              My feeling is that this would upset the order from top to bottom. It
              would be more plausible if saccaadhigama were placed first but we have
              aasavakkhayalabha instead. Also, keep in mind the term 'khii.naasavo'
              for one whose aasavas are destroyed. I don't think I've ever come
              acroos the term 'saccaadhigato' as a term for one who has arruved at
              the truths.

              << 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
              translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
              practice, is known.' >>

              Okay, I'll keep that one in mind.

              Best wishes,
              Jim
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the commentarial definitions of pariyatti and had even posted the following from the
              Message 6 of 16 , May 6, 2009
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                Dear Mahinda,

                Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the
                commentarial definitions of 'pariyatti' and had even posted the
                following from the .tiikaa on Abh 784 a few months ago:

                "pariyatti pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti
                is the vinaya, abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered".

                My problem lies with translations such as 'scriptural learning' (you
                did translate it as 'textual learning') and I find this rather
                different from it being translated simply as 'the scriptures' or 'the
                texts'. I'm considering changing my translation of verse 8d from:
                "supported by competence in the scriptures." to "supported by the
                Scriptures." (i.e the teachings as preserved in the Scriptures or the
                Tipi.taka).

                Jim

                > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Jim Anderson
                <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:
                > >
                > > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding.
                > >
                >
                > Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD
                under
                > 'pariyattiiti' and you will get a number of defining references.
                Most of
                > them say "pariyattiiti tii.ni pi.takaani". A comment in Anguttara
                > Commentary goes further and says that Pariyatti means the three
                Pitakas
                > plus the commentaries. It is an entirely Buddhist usage. The
                Sanskrit
                > equivalent paryaapti is not used in this sense in Hindu literature.
                > PTSD has a fair explanation of the evolution of the term, from
                'mastery' to
                > "what is matered". (In olden times learning by heart and what has
                been
                > learnt by heart.)
                >
                > Mahinda
              • P G Dave
                *re. saasana *I would think saasana expresses a combination of the three concepts of teaching, training and discipline. I can t think of a perfect synonym in
                Message 7 of 16 , May 7, 2009
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                  *re. saasana

                  *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
                  teaching, training and discipline.
                  I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.

                  metta,
                  PG

                  On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > would you please me to give some advice
                  > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
                  > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is
                  > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
                  > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                  > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction
                  > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
                  > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                  > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice,
                  > is known.'
                  >
                  > best regards
                  > Dhammadhiro
                  >
                  >
                  > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                  > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                  >
                  > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                  > in the Dispensation;
                  > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                  > attainment of the truths; 7
                  >
                  > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                  > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                  >
                  > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                  > practice;
                  > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                  > scriptures.
                  >
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                  > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
                  > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
                  > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
                  > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
                  > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
                  > >
                  > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                  > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                  > >
                  > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                  > > in the Dispensation;
                  > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                  > > attainment of the truths; 7
                  > >
                  > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                  > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                  > >
                  > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                  > > practice;
                  > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                  > > scriptures. 8
                  > >
                  > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
                  > > PED).
                  > >
                  > > Best wishes,
                  > > Jim
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lennart Lopin
                  Gospel (literally) ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would be a perfect fit, see below... ========================== PED:
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 8, 2009
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                    "Gospel" (literally)

                    ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would
                    be a perfect fit, see below...


                    ==========================
                    PED:
                    ....susāsanaŋ dussānaŋ J i.239 (English transl.: "true and false doctrine,"
                    "good and bad news")....
                    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.pali.35009

                    Etym of gospel:
                    O.E. godspel "good news," from god "good" + spel "story, message,"
                    translation of L. bona adnuntiatio, itself a translation of Gk.
                    euangelion "reward
                    for bringing good news." First element of the O.E. word had a long "o," but
                    it shifted under mistaken assoc. with God. Gospel-gossip was Addison's word
                    ("Spectator," 1711) for "one who is always talking of sermons, texts, etc."
                    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gospel
                    =============================================

                    This would capture

                    a.) Teaching
                    b.) Message (worthy)
                    c.) Training, a message to be put in practice
                    d.) qualities of a "dispensation", "tradition" even "religion"

                    ...but not really a serious consideration, given the many associations which
                    people follow first, rather than thinking of a words etymology, :-)

                    Lennart

                    On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:08 AM, P G Dave <pgd2507@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > *re. saasana
                    >
                    > *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
                    > teaching, training and discipline.
                    > I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.
                    >
                    > metta,
                    > PG
                    >
                    >
                    > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...<dhammadhiro%40yahoo.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > would you please me to give some advice
                    > > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
                    > > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that
                    > is
                    > > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
                    > > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                    > > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
                    > destruction
                    > > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
                    > > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                    > > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
                    > practice,
                    > > is known.'
                    > >
                    > > best regards
                    > > Dhammadhiro
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                    > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                    > >
                    > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                    > > in the Dispensation;
                    > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                    > > attainment of the truths; 7
                    > >
                    > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                    > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                    > >
                    > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                    > > practice;
                    > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                    > > scriptures.
                    > >
                    > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> <Pali%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                    > > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
                    > > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
                    > > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
                    > > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
                    > > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
                    > > >
                    > > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                    > > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                    > > >
                    > > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                    > > > in the Dispensation;
                    > > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                    > > > attainment of the truths; 7
                    > > >
                    > > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                    > > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                    > > >
                    > > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                    > > > practice;
                    > > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                    > > > scriptures. 8
                    > > >
                    > > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
                    > > > PED).
                    > > >
                    > > > Best wishes,
                    > > > Jim
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • DC Wijeratna
                    sabbapaapasssa akarana.m ..... eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice. In later texts, the
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 11, 2009
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                      sabbapaapasssa akarana.m .....
                      eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m

                      The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice.
                      In later texts, the meaning might have got expanded.
                      �D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





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