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Re: [Pali] Saddniiti: introductory verses 7 & 8

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  • Mahinda Palihawadana
    ... Dear Jim, I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb. Grammatically saccaadhigama.m .... mata.m (hoti). The meaning would be The
    Message 1 of 16 , May 5, 2009
      On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
      > .
      >
      > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
      > practice
      >

      Dear Jim,
      I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb. Grammatically
      "saccaadhigama.m .... mata.m (hoti)." The meaning would be "The attainment
      of truths is known (or regarded or understood) to be based on practice."

      Regards.

      Mahinda



      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mahinda Palihawadana
      ... Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD under pariyattiiti and you will get a number of defining references. Most of them say
      Message 2 of 16 , May 5, 2009
        On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding.
        >

        Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD under
        'pariyattiiti' and you will get a number of defining references. Most of
        them say "pariyattiiti tii.ni pi.takaani". A comment in Anguttara
        Commentary goes further and says that Pariyatti means the three Pitakas
        plus the commentaries. It is an entirely Buddhist usage. The Sanskrit
        equivalent paryaapti is not used in this sense in Hindu literature.
        PTSD has a fair explanation of the evolution of the term, from 'mastery' to
        "what is matered". (In olden times learning by heart and what has been
        learnt by heart.)

        Mahinda


        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Jade, I assume you re referring to .m . It is the niggahiita -- the
        Message 3 of 16 , May 5, 2009
          Dear Jade,

          << I notice the use of m. what does this "m." mean in Pali, masculine
          or plural?>>

          I assume you're referring to ".m". It is the niggahiita -- the 41st or
          last letter of the Pali alphabet. It is equivalent to the m with an
          underdot as seen in unicode. For representing the m with an overdot
          you can type "m which is also another way to represent the niggahiita.

          << saccaadhigamana. m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita. m mata.m.
          pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya. naa..>>

          It seems that some spaces somehow got inserted after the period in the
          digital transmission.

          Best wishes,
          Jim
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Mahinda, Thank you for your interpretation of mata.m as a PPP which you also suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is the
          Message 4 of 16 , May 5, 2009
            Dear Mahinda,

            Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
            suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
            the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
            PPP to function grammatically. I still think that taking 'mata.m' as
            an action-noun in the neuter has some justification (it is possible to
            have two or more valid interpretatons of the same Pali word like the
            'suta.m' in 'eva.m me suta.m'. In Cone's entry for 'adhigama' some of
            the other meanings given besides 'attainment' are 'understanding' and
            'realisation' -- so I don't think it's incorrect to state that the
            attainment of the truths is an understanding. Although Aggava.msa has
            'saccaadhigamana.m' in v. 8a, I think the meaning can be taken as
            exactly the same as the 'saccaadhigama-' in v. 7d.

            Best wishes,
            Jim


            > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
            > > .
            > >
            > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
            > > practice
            > >
            >
            > Dear Jim,
            > I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb.
            Grammatically
            > "saccaadhigama.m .... mata.m (hoti)." The meaning would be "The
            attainment
            > of truths is known (or regarded or understood) to be based on
            practice."
            >
            > Regards.
            >
            > Mahinda
          • dhammadhiro
            would you please me to give some advice 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is
            Message 5 of 16 , May 5, 2009
              would you please me to give some advice
              1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
              2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
              3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice, is known.'

              best regards
              Dhammadhiro


              aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
              aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..

              With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
              in the Dispensation;
              and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
              attainment of the truths; 7

              saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

              and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
              practice;
              and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
              scriptures.





              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
              >
              > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
              > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
              > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
              > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
              > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
              >
              > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
              > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
              >
              > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
              > in the Dispensation;
              > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
              > attainment of the truths; 7
              >
              > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
              >
              > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
              > practice;
              > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
              > scriptures. 8
              >
              > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
              > PED).
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Jim
              >
            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              ... Dear Jim, But even in the example you quote eva.m me suta.m , isn t the verb to be not implied, although it is not physically there? Another common
              Message 6 of 16 , May 5, 2009
                On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 5:53 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Dear Mahinda,
                >
                > Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
                > suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
                > the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
                > PPP to function grammatically.
                >

                Dear Jim,

                But even in the example you quote "eva.m me suta.m", isn't the verb 'to be'
                not implied, although it is not 'physically' there? Another common example
                is kata.m kara.niiya.m :"done (is) what has to done".

                Certainly, there can be different interpretations. I only indicated what
                seems to me to be the more likely sense.

                Sorry I forgot all about the earlier communication. Apologies - and regards.

                Mahinda

                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Jim, Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more thoughts. ... N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know. ... N:
                Message 7 of 16 , May 6, 2009
                  Dear Jim,
                  Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more
                  thoughts.
                  Op 5-mei-2009, om 4:29 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
                  > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding. It is
                  > related to the verb 'pariyaapu.naati' -- to fully acquire or master
                  > (the scriptures).
                  -------
                  N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know.
                  -------
                  > J: Pariyatti is where we start, I think, and it relates to
                  > getting to the point where we don't get confused about the letters and
                  > the words and are able to focus more and more on the meaning of the
                  > Buddha's teachings.
                  --------
                  N: Perhaps knowing the letter and the meaning (the letter and the
                  spirit). With yoniso manasikaara.
                  --------
                  > J: Verses 9 to 12 describe the process of going from
                  > pariyatti to the supramundane state. At the beginning of verse 9 there
                  > is the term 'pariyattabhiyuttaana.m' which I think means: of/for
                  > experts in the scriptures who understand the characteristic of the
                  > language.
                  --------
                  N: True, we are dependent on language, on words to understand the
                  teachings. For instance, we read about cakkhu dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu,
                  cakkhuvi~n~naa.na dhaatu. When I hear the word characteristic,
                  lakkha.na, I think of direct experience, not having to name
                  realities. There has to be yoniso manasikaara of the actual seeing
                  and visible object in order to become vi~n~nuu, someone with
                  understanding. What is seen, visible object, is only a dhaatu, not a
                  person. But it takes long to truly realize this. Pariyatti is
                  difficult for all of us. We keep on perceiving persons the whole day.
                  But that is thinking, not seeing.
                  ---------
                  > J: Verse 10 then goes on to describe the vi~n~nuus who
                  > understand the meaning of the scriptures, and finally in verses 11 &
                  > 12 we meet the sappa~n~nas who follow the path and go on to reach the
                  > supramundane.
                  --------
                  N:I like your description. Thus, pariyatti is more than just reading
                  the scriptures, what is met with in the texts has to be related to
                  our life now. Only thus pariyatti can develop into pa.tipatti, the
                  practice of vipassanaa/satipa.t.thaana.

                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Dhammadhiro, ...
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 6, 2009
                    Dear Dhammadhiro,

                    > would you please me to give some advice

                    << 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of
                    saasana? in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in
                    general that is Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense? >>

                    Yes, 'dispensation' is the translation for 'saasana'. This came about
                    from Mahinda's suggestion of 'for the benefit of the Dispensation'
                    rather than my 'for the benefit of the Teaching' for 'saasanattha.m'
                    in verse 6. ~Na.namoli also translates 'dispensation' for 'saasana' in
                    his Path of Purification', I agree that 'dispensation' is rather odd
                    and we need to come up with something better. And 'Teachings' does
                    sound better. 'Dispensation' seems to suggest the dispensing of the
                    teachings like a chemist dispensing medicine.

                    << 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                    saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
                    destruction of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the
                    truths' >>

                    My feeling is that this would upset the order from top to bottom. It
                    would be more plausible if saccaadhigama were placed first but we have
                    aasavakkhayalabha instead. Also, keep in mind the term 'khii.naasavo'
                    for one whose aasavas are destroyed. I don't think I've ever come
                    acroos the term 'saccaadhigato' as a term for one who has arruved at
                    the truths.

                    << 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                    translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
                    practice, is known.' >>

                    Okay, I'll keep that one in mind.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jim
                  • Jim Anderson
                    Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the commentarial definitions of pariyatti and had even posted the following from the
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 6, 2009
                      Dear Mahinda,

                      Thank-you for the clarification. I was aware of some of the
                      commentarial definitions of 'pariyatti' and had even posted the
                      following from the .tiikaa on Abh 784 a few months ago:

                      "pariyatti pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti
                      is the vinaya, abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered".

                      My problem lies with translations such as 'scriptural learning' (you
                      did translate it as 'textual learning') and I find this rather
                      different from it being translated simply as 'the scriptures' or 'the
                      texts'. I'm considering changing my translation of verse 8d from:
                      "supported by competence in the scriptures." to "supported by the
                      Scriptures." (i.e the teachings as preserved in the Scriptures or the
                      Tipi.taka).

                      Jim

                      > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Jim Anderson
                      <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD
                      under
                      > 'pariyattiiti' and you will get a number of defining references.
                      Most of
                      > them say "pariyattiiti tii.ni pi.takaani". A comment in Anguttara
                      > Commentary goes further and says that Pariyatti means the three
                      Pitakas
                      > plus the commentaries. It is an entirely Buddhist usage. The
                      Sanskrit
                      > equivalent paryaapti is not used in this sense in Hindu literature.
                      > PTSD has a fair explanation of the evolution of the term, from
                      'mastery' to
                      > "what is matered". (In olden times learning by heart and what has
                      been
                      > learnt by heart.)
                      >
                      > Mahinda
                    • P G Dave
                      *re. saasana *I would think saasana expresses a combination of the three concepts of teaching, training and discipline. I can t think of a perfect synonym in
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 7, 2009
                        *re. saasana

                        *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
                        teaching, training and discipline.
                        I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.

                        metta,
                        PG

                        On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > would you please me to give some advice
                        > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
                        > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is
                        > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
                        > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                        > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction
                        > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
                        > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                        > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice,
                        > is known.'
                        >
                        > best regards
                        > Dhammadhiro
                        >
                        >
                        > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                        > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                        >
                        > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                        > in the Dispensation;
                        > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                        > attainment of the truths; 7
                        >
                        > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                        > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                        >
                        > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                        > practice;
                        > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                        > scriptures.
                        >
                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                        > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
                        > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
                        > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
                        > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
                        > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
                        > >
                        > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                        > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                        > >
                        > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                        > > in the Dispensation;
                        > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                        > > attainment of the truths; 7
                        > >
                        > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                        > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                        > >
                        > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                        > > practice;
                        > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                        > > scriptures. 8
                        > >
                        > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
                        > > PED).
                        > >
                        > > Best wishes,
                        > > Jim
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lennart Lopin
                        Gospel (literally) ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would be a perfect fit, see below... ========================== PED:
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 8, 2009
                          "Gospel" (literally)

                          ...if that word would not carry such a specific Christian context, it would
                          be a perfect fit, see below...


                          ==========================
                          PED:
                          ....susāsanaŋ dussānaŋ J i.239 (English transl.: "true and false doctrine,"
                          "good and bad news")....
                          http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.pali.35009

                          Etym of gospel:
                          O.E. godspel "good news," from god "good" + spel "story, message,"
                          translation of L. bona adnuntiatio, itself a translation of Gk.
                          euangelion "reward
                          for bringing good news." First element of the O.E. word had a long "o," but
                          it shifted under mistaken assoc. with God. Gospel-gossip was Addison's word
                          ("Spectator," 1711) for "one who is always talking of sermons, texts, etc."
                          http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gospel
                          =============================================

                          This would capture

                          a.) Teaching
                          b.) Message (worthy)
                          c.) Training, a message to be put in practice
                          d.) qualities of a "dispensation", "tradition" even "religion"

                          ...but not really a serious consideration, given the many associations which
                          people follow first, rather than thinking of a words etymology, :-)

                          Lennart

                          On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:08 AM, P G Dave <pgd2507@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > *re. saasana
                          >
                          > *I would think "saasana" expresses a combination of the three concepts of
                          > teaching, training and discipline.
                          > I can't think of a perfect synonym in english.
                          >
                          > metta,
                          > PG
                          >
                          >
                          > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, dhammadhiro <dhammadhiro@...<dhammadhiro%40yahoo.com>>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > would you please me to give some advice
                          > > 1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana?
                          > > in my understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that
                          > is
                          > > Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
                          > > 2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
                          > > saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the
                          > destruction
                          > > of the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
                          > > 3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the
                          > > translation would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on
                          > practice,
                          > > is known.'
                          > >
                          > > best regards
                          > > Dhammadhiro
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                          > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                          > >
                          > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                          > > in the Dispensation;
                          > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                          > > attainment of the truths; 7
                          > >
                          > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                          > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                          > >
                          > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                          > > practice;
                          > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                          > > scriptures.
                          > >
                          > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> <Pali%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                          > > <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
                          > > > 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
                          > > > some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
                          > > > verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
                          > > > coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
                          > > >
                          > > > aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
                          > > > aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
                          > > >
                          > > > With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
                          > > > in the Dispensation;
                          > > > and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
                          > > > attainment of the truths; 7
                          > > >
                          > > > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                          > > > pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                          > > >
                          > > > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
                          > > > practice;
                          > > > and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
                          > > > scriptures. 8
                          > > >
                          > > > Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
                          > > > PED).
                          > > >
                          > > > Best wishes,
                          > > > Jim
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • DC Wijeratna
                          sabbapaapasssa akarana.m ..... eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice. In later texts, the
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 11, 2009
                            sabbapaapasssa akarana.m .....
                            eta.m�buddhaanasaasana.m

                            The�meaning of saasaana, in the suttas, appears to be the�above--Advice.
                            In later texts, the meaning might have got expanded.
                            �D. G. D. C. Wijeratna





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