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Re: [Pali] Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9

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  • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
    Dear John, We ve done three fourths! The finish is close. My suggestions are: Lesson 8 Section 1 1. atha kho - and then; How tranquil are the faculties of
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 3, 2002
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      Dear John,

      We've done three fourths! The finish is close.

      My suggestions are:

      Lesson 8
      Section 1
      1.
      atha kho - and then;

      "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama, how clean and
      unblemished the complexion."

      'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant', therefore instead
      of 'master' 'sir' fits better.

      2.
      tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;

      'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The narrational Pali present
      is better rendered by past time.

      'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we say'.

      bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?

      3.
      'and lapses into everything it wishes';

      sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;

      patiruupa - example;
      kilissati - defiles himself;

      Let one firstly set an example himself;
      Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't defile himself.

      Section 2
      1.
      'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';

      Mahaavana - Great Forest;

      'point out the visible fruit of generosity'

      daayaka - donor;

      bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj' in Sanskrit
      dictionary);

      daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti - generous lay donor
      is well served by virtuous people;

      ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;

      2.
      pavatti - perpetration;

      ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
      yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);

      3.
      "If a monk is of such character,..."

      kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;

      4.
      ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who after death is reborn in
      the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn in Kashmir?

      With the same (speed), great king.

      cintita is a past participle, therefore:

      I have thought, venerable sir.

      About which (place) you thought slower, great king, and about which
      faster?

      With the same (speed), great king.

      Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn in the
      Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in Kashmir,
      do it with the same speed (in the same amount of time).

      Give me one more analogy.

      What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in the sky and one
      sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a tree, if they land (on
      a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one would land on the ground
      first, and which one later?

      Lesson 9
      1.
      ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.

      bhadante - venerable sir;

      mahaapadesa - great argument;

      eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;

      otaariyamaana - being collated (according to Margaret Cone
      dictionary);

      Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying these sentences
      and syllables, they should collate them to the discourses, and compare
      them with the rules of discipline.

      3.
      chanda.m - desire;

      bhadra - good fortune;

      But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees good fortune.

      Just as poison does not enter when there is no wound,
      so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.

      Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without taints get to
      highest calm.

      Section 2
      1.
      bhante - venerable sir;

      ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus he undertakes
      well this world and the next.

      2.
      "What if I will preach the Doctrine."

      3.
      Who will conquer this earth,
      And this world of yama, together with its gods?
      Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the truth
      Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?

      In second verse there's no question.

      papupphaka.m - blooming flower
      (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);

      Having realized that this body is like foam,
      Understanding its illusory nature,
      And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
      One may go unseen past the king of death.

      maana - conceit;

      That fool who considers himself fool,
      Is in fact wise because of this;
      Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
      He is indeed called a fool.

      Hopefully these suggestions will help.

      Metta,
      Dimitry
    • John Kelly
      Dear Dimitry, It s weeks since you posted your thoughtful response to my translations of the exercises in lessons 8 and 9 (which I posted at
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 26, 2002
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        Dear Dimitry,
        It's weeks since you posted your thoughtful response
        to my translations of the exercises in lessons 8 and 9
        (which I posted at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/Gair%20Karunatillake/
        ), and I've only now had a chance to review carefully
        my original translations with your comments in mind.

        The majority of your suggestions were significant
        improvements on my attempt, and in some cases I really
        was a little off the mark. Thank you!

        I just have a couple of questions:
        Lesson 8, Section 1, #3.
        You suggest "patiruupa" s/b translated by "example".
        I used "proper", based on the book's glossary and PED
        which indicates the meaning as "fit, proper, suitable,
        befitting, seeming". Can you elaborate on your
        interpretation?

        Lesson 9, Section 2, #3.
        You suggest "pappupphaka.m" s/b translated as
        "blooming flowers" (based on the Sanskrit dictionary),
        but Gair and PED both translate this as "flower-tipped
        arrow".

        Thanks again for all your great help with this,
        John
        --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
        Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
        > Dear John,
        >
        > We've done three fourths! The finish is close.
        >
        > My suggestions are:
        >
        > Lesson 8
        > Section 1
        > 1.
        > atha kho - and then;
        >
        > "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama,
        > how clean and
        > unblemished the complexion."
        >
        > 'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant',
        > therefore instead
        > of 'master' 'sir' fits better.
        >
        > 2.
        > tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;
        >
        > 'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The
        > narrational Pali present
        > is better rendered by past time.
        >
        > 'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we
        > say'.
        >
        > bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?
        >
        > 3.
        > 'and lapses into everything it wishes';
        >
        > sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;
        >
        > patiruupa - example;
        > kilissati - defiles himself;
        >
        > Let one firstly set an example himself;
        > Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't
        > defile himself.
        >
        > Section 2
        > 1.
        > 'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';
        >
        > Mahaavana - Great Forest;
        >
        > 'point out the visible fruit of generosity'
        >
        > daayaka - donor;
        >
        > bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj'
        > in Sanskrit
        > dictionary);
        >
        > daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti -
        > generous lay donor
        > is well served by virtuous people;
        >
        > ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;
        >
        > 2.
        > pavatti - perpetration;
        >
        > ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
        > yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);
        >
        > 3.
        > "If a monk is of such character,..."
        >
        > kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;
        >
        > 4.
        > ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who
        > after death is reborn in
        > the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn
        > in Kashmir?
        >
        > With the same (speed), great king.
        >
        > cintita is a past participle, therefore:
        >
        > I have thought, venerable sir.
        >
        > About which (place) you thought slower, great king,
        > and about which
        > faster?
        >
        > With the same (speed), great king.
        >
        > Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn
        > in the
        > Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in
        > Kashmir,
        > do it with the same speed (in the same amount of
        > time).
        >
        > Give me one more analogy.
        >
        > What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in
        > the sky and one
        > sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a
        > tree, if they land (on
        > a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one
        > would land on the ground
        > first, and which one later?
        >
        > Lesson 9
        > 1.
        > ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.
        >
        > bhadante - venerable sir;
        >
        > mahaapadesa - great argument;
        >
        > eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;
        >
        > otaariyamaana - being collated (according to
        > Margaret Cone
        > dictionary);
        >
        > Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying
        > these sentences
        > and syllables, they should collate them to the
        > discourses, and compare
        > them with the rules of discipline.
        >
        > 3.
        > chanda.m - desire;
        >
        > bhadra - good fortune;
        >
        > But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees
        > good fortune.
        >
        > Just as poison does not enter when there is no
        > wound,
        > so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.
        >
        > Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without
        > taints get to
        > highest calm.
        >
        > Section 2
        > 1.
        > bhante - venerable sir;
        >
        > ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus
        > he undertakes
        > well this world and the next.
        >
        > 2.
        > "What if I will preach the Doctrine."
        >
        > 3.
        > Who will conquer this earth,
        > And this world of yama, together with its gods?
        > Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the
        > truth
        > Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?
        >
        > In second verse there's no question.
        >
        > papupphaka.m - blooming flower
        > (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);
        >
        > Having realized that this body is like foam,
        > Understanding its illusory nature,
        > And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
        > One may go unseen past the king of death.
        >
        > maana - conceit;
        >
        > That fool who considers himself fool,
        > Is in fact wise because of this;
        > Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
        > He is indeed called a fool.
        >
        > Hopefully these suggestions will help.
        >
        > Metta,
        > Dimitry
        >
        >
        >


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      • äÍÉÔÒÉÊ áÌÅËÓÅÅ×ÉÞ é×
        Dear John, Thank you for your persistent efforts. Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent is a common practice widely used by
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 27, 2002
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          Dear John,

          Thank you for your persistent efforts.

          Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent is a
          common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
          himself.

          When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such resources
          as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we should
          use such resources wisely in difficult cases.

          JK> You suggest "patiruupa" s/b translated by "example".
          JK> I used "proper", based on the book's glossary and PED
          JK> which indicates the meaning as "fit, proper, suitable,
          JK> befitting, seeming". Can you elaborate on your
          JK> interpretation?

          It is based on Sanskrit 'pratiruupa' 'a pattern, model for imitation',

          'pratiruupacarya' 'exemplary in conduct, worthy of imitation'

          'pratiruupacaryaa' 'suitable or exemplary conduct'.

          (As an adjective Sanskrit 'pratiruupa' can also mean 'suitable,
          proper, fit', however here it is apparently a noun.)

          attaana.m ... patiruupe nivesaye - he should set an example himself
          (literally 'he should establish himself in the model of imitation').

          JK> You suggest "pappupphaka.m" s/b translated as
          JK> "blooming flowers" (based on the Sanskrit dictionary),
          JK> but Gair and PED both translate this as "flower-tipped
          JK> arrow".

          Some articles in PED are based on the informed guesses, taking in
          account all resources available at that time. Nowadays more resources
          are available. So I would translate it as 'blossoms' (since Sanskrit
          'prapu.spita' means 'flowering, in blossom, blooming').

          Kind regards,
          Dimitry

          JK> --- "Дмитрий Алексеевич Ивахненко (Dimitry A.
          JK> Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
          >> Dear John,
          >>
          >> We've done three fourths! The finish is close.
          >>
          >> My suggestions are:
          >>
          >> Lesson 8
          >> Section 1
          >> 1.
          >> atha kho - and then;
          >>
          >> "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama,
          >> how clean and
          >> unblemished the complexion."
          >>
          >> 'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant',
          >> therefore instead
          >> of 'master' 'sir' fits better.
          >>
          >> 2.
          >> tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;
          >>
          >> 'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The
          >> narrational Pali present
          >> is better rendered by past time.
          >>
          >> 'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we
          >> say'.
          >>
          >> bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?
          >>
          >> 3.
          >> 'and lapses into everything it wishes';
          >>
          >> sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;
          >>
          >> patiruupa - example;
          >> kilissati - defiles himself;
          >>
          >> Let one firstly set an example himself;
          >> Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't
          >> defile himself.
          >>
          >> Section 2
          >> 1.
          >> 'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';
          >>
          >> Mahaavana - Great Forest;
          >>
          >> 'point out the visible fruit of generosity'
          >>
          >> daayaka - donor;
          >>
          >> bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj'
          >> in Sanskrit
          >> dictionary);
          >>
          >> daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti -
          >> generous lay donor
          >> is well served by virtuous people;
          >>
          >> ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;
          >>
          >> 2.
          >> pavatti - perpetration;
          >>
          >> ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
          >> yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);
          >>
          >> 3.
          >> "If a monk is of such character,..."
          >>
          >> kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;
          >>
          >> 4.
          >> ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who
          >> after death is reborn in
          >> the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn
          >> in Kashmir?
          >>
          >> With the same (speed), great king.
          >>
          >> cintita is a past participle, therefore:
          >>
          >> I have thought, venerable sir.
          >>
          >> About which (place) you thought slower, great king,
          >> and about which
          >> faster?
          >>
          >> With the same (speed), great king.
          >>
          >> Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn
          >> in the
          >> Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in
          >> Kashmir,
          >> do it with the same speed (in the same amount of
          >> time).
          >>
          >> Give me one more analogy.
          >>
          >> What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in
          >> the sky and one
          >> sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a
          >> tree, if they land (on
          >> a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one
          >> would land on the ground
          >> first, and which one later?
          >>
          >> Lesson 9
          >> 1.
          >> ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.
          >>
          >> bhadante - venerable sir;
          >>
          >> mahaapadesa - great argument;
          >>
          >> eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;
          >>
          >> otaariyamaana - being collated (according to
          >> Margaret Cone
          >> dictionary);
          >>
          >> Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying
          >> these sentences
          >> and syllables, they should collate them to the
          >> discourses, and compare
          >> them with the rules of discipline.
          >>
          >> 3.
          >> chanda.m - desire;
          >>
          >> bhadra - good fortune;
          >>
          >> But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees
          >> good fortune.
          >>
          >> Just as poison does not enter when there is no
          >> wound,
          >> so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.
          >>
          >> Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without
          >> taints get to
          >> highest calm.
          >>
          >> Section 2
          >> 1.
          >> bhante - venerable sir;
          >>
          >> ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus
          >> he undertakes
          >> well this world and the next.
          >>
          >> 2.
          >> "What if I will preach the Doctrine."
          >>
          >> 3.
          >> Who will conquer this earth,
          >> And this world of yama, together with its gods?
          >> Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the
          >> truth
          >> Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?
          >>
          >> In second verse there's no question.
          >>
          >> papupphaka.m - blooming flower
          >> (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);
          >>
          >> Having realized that this body is like foam,
          >> Understanding its illusory nature,
          >> And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
          >> One may go unseen past the king of death.
          >>
          >> maana - conceit;
          >>
          >> That fool who considers himself fool,
          >> Is in fact wise because of this;
          >> Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
          >> He is indeed called a fool.
          >>
          >> Hopefully these suggestions will help.
          >>
          >> Metta,
          >> Dimitry
          >>
          >>
          >>


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        • paulocuana
          Dear Dimitry, I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary, and the first volume of A Pali Dictionary by Ms. Margaret Cone is very
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 29, 2002
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            Dear Dimitry,

            I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary,
            and the first volume of "A Pali Dictionary" by Ms. Margaret Cone is
            very satisfying. The problem with the PED is its dogged commitment
            to etymology. While the history of words has its place among the more
            academic linguists, surely most of us amateurs read the texts for
            their meaning. Ms. Cone's dictionary is much welcomed as it focuses
            on meaning and usage instead of history.
            As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
            I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
            this is the same thing you are referring to.

            Best Wishes,
            Paul O Cuana


            --- In Pali@y..., "äÍÉÔÒÉÊ áÌÅËÓÅÅ×ÉÞ é×ÁÈÎÅÎËÏ (Dimitry A.
            Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@i...> wrote:

            > Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent
            is a
            > common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
            > himself.
            >
            > When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such
            resources
            > as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we
            should
            > use such resources wisely in difficult cases.
          • Robert Didham
            Paul I am sorry I cannot agree with your negative views on etymology. One of the ways (only one, but still an important one) in which we can work out the
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 30, 2002
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              Paul

              I am sorry I cannot agree with your negative views on etymology. One of the
              ways (only one, but still an important one) in which we can work out the
              meaning of a word is via its etymology. Semantic fields of all words change
              with context and over time and it is this problem which leads not just to
              misunderstandings but also to the long debates on exact meanings of passages
              (often with important doctrinal consequences). To ignore this problem puts
              us in the position of "knowing" ahead of time the meaning we want to get out
              of the text but the words and the grammar don't support it so we decide the
              words and the grammar are irrelevant.

              Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the
              lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton. It is vital that
              we remember that any doctionary builds on all previous dictionaries, they
              each have (or should have) a clear understanding of their purpose and role
              which may or may not meet the purpose and roles users see for it, and each
              dictionary is merely one person's or group of people's views of the meaning
              and usage of the item at the time.

              However, at least you don't confuse etymology and meaning - there has been a
              discussion elsewhere on the etymology of "karuna" and none of the replies
              have more than scouted the edge of the question and most have concentrated
              on glosses of the word in the commentaries - in other words, on the meanings
              of the word in the opinion of various commentators rather than on its
              etymology.

              I am not sure what you mean by an "academic linguist" as opposed to an
              "amateur" - surely these are not merely not mutually exclusive but should
              be, in our field, handmaidens to each other? We cannot get at the texts
              without a lot of linguistics since there is so much material that is
              untranslated into modern languages we can read and often we have as yet no
              satisfactory dictionaries to help us out (as happens with some of the
              Prakrit material). Similarly, if we were not amateurs we wouldn't be in the
              field in the first place.

              I totally agree that the work of Margaret Cone on the Pali Dictionary is
              absolutely essential and thus far excellent - but this is not to denigrate
              the old PTS dictionary. For one thing, that one is at least complete. You
              still the PTS PED alongside as well as the CPD (as far as that has got so
              far)and when they fail there is always the Burmese Pali dictionary to fall
              back on. The reason I suggest this is that any dictionary (even one that
              concentrates on meanings)has a very limited scope and the citations can only
              cover the most frequent examples - you can be sure that the text you get
              stuck on will have a meaning not attested in the dictionaries at hand and
              you may even find that the commentaries, if they exist, disagree. In some
              cases it is difficult to be sure of the actual meaning (rhino horns and
              geese spring to mind here)

              Incidentally one criticism I have of MW is that it sometimes has obscure
              usages as examples and misses a common one - I wonder whether the pundit
              advisors he used sometimes had a small smile at his expense)


              Keep up the good work

              Robert Didham


              >From: "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...>
              >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Pali] Re: Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9
              >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:40:02 -0000
              >
              >Dear Dimitry,
              >
              >I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary,
              >and the first volume of "A Pali Dictionary" by Ms. Margaret Cone is
              >very satisfying. The problem with the PED is its dogged commitment
              >to etymology. While the history of words has its place among the more
              >academic linguists, surely most of us amateurs read the texts for
              >their meaning. Ms. Cone's dictionary is much welcomed as it focuses
              >on meaning and usage instead of history.
              >As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
              >I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
              >this is the same thing you are referring to.
              >
              >Best Wishes,
              >Paul O Cuana
              >
              >
              >--- In Pali@y..., "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
              >Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@i...> wrote:
              >
              > > Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent
              >is a
              > > common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
              > > himself.
              > >
              > > When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such
              >resources
              > > as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we
              >should
              > > use such resources wisely in difficult cases.
              >
              >
              >


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            • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
              Dear Paul, Ms. Cone s dictionary is a step forward, but still has a lot to improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations without explanation - nowadays
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 30, 2002
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                Dear Paul,

                Ms. Cone's dictionary is a step forward, but still has a lot to
                improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations without
                explanation - nowadays anyone can find any number of relevant
                citations on computer. PED is more friendly in this regard. It also
                has many pioneering discoveries of the meanings, be they right or
                wrong. Ms. Cone's dictionary often simply preserves them and does not
                reflect active work of thought. It gives impression that
                philological Pali thought has somewhat stagnated since 1925.

                p> As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
                p> I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
                p> this is the same thing you are referring to.

                I don't know its exact publication date. The fact is that
                Monier-Williams dictionary is not included in the list of consulted
                sources of PED.

                Etymology represents an important constituent of linguistic studies -
                alongside with actual context, commentarial glosses, definitions,
                equivalents in other languages. We should use all these tools for
                better understanding.

                Best Wishes,
                Dimitry
              • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                Dear Robert, RD Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the RD lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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                  Dear Robert,

                  RD> Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the
                  RD> lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.

                  Can you please tell more about Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary by
                  F. Edgerton? How relevant it is to Pali studies?

                  Kind regards,

                  Dimitry Ivakhnenko
                • Robert Didham
                  Dear Dimitry The point I was making was partly that the search for meanings and etymologies of Pali and Prakrit texts is likely to prove less fruitful if one
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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                    Dear Dimitry

                    The point I was making was partly that the search for meanings and
                    etymologies of Pali and Prakrit texts is likely to prove less fruitful if
                    one looks in classical Sanskrit as attested in MW than it is to be if one
                    looks at forms reflected BHS. For this reason if the compilers of the PED
                    were to have needed recourse to a Sanskrit dictionary they would have found
                    Edgerton a lot more useful if only because the examples were drawn almost
                    exclusively from Buddhist materials.

                    They probably would have used used Boehtlingk of course rather than MW but
                    their stated sources do not indicate this (neither are mentioned, though
                    they do mention both Brugmann and Grassmann - and their foreword is well
                    worth a read for considerable insight into their perspective).

                    Edgerton's dictionary was not published until around 1950 (there are current
                    editions published by Motilal Banarsidass) but as with any dictionary, these
                    don't get written overnight anymore than one might find a publisher
                    overnight!!

                    I am not sure if I have adequately answered your question, Dimitry, but
                    please let me know if I have totally missed the target.

                    Cheers

                    Robert

                    >From: "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko)"
                    ><koleso@...>
                    >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: Robert Didham <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re[2]: [Pali] Re: Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9
                    >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:00:53 +0200
                    >
                    >Dear Robert,
                    >
                    >RD> Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW
                    >was the
                    >RD> lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.
                    >
                    >Can you please tell more about Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary by
                    >F. Edgerton? How relevant it is to Pali studies?
                    >
                    >Kind regards,
                    >
                    >Dimitry Ivakhnenko
                    >
                    >


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                  • Paul O Cuana
                    Dear Dimitry, I don t wish to be contentious but it seems important that one should know the date of publication of Monier-Williams before stating that it
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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                      Dear Dimitry,

                      I don't wish to be contentious but it seems important
                      that one should know the date of publication of
                      Monier-Williams before stating that it didn't exist at
                      the time the PED was compiled. Not knowing anything
                      about Sanskrit, I was genuinely confused by the
                      comment
                      to the point that I thought perhaps there were two
                      such
                      people named M-W and I'm still not convinced of this.
                      This is to say nothing of the question that the
                      existence of M-W leaves open, i.e. why did Rys-Davids
                      and Stede not choose M-W.

                      As to the two PTS dictionaries, the old focuses on
                      etymology and the new on meaning and usage. Both are
                      fine works and I didn't mean to denigrate the old.
                      I think you'll find that Ms. Cone uses quotations to
                      illustrate meaning and mere citations to show the
                      range
                      of texts, usually canonical, where a word is found.

                      I did think your criticism of Ms. Cone was rather
                      harsh
                      and it recalled a humourous poem that Dorothy Parker
                      wrote. Now remember this is all in good fun. I
                      believe Mrs. Parker wrote the poem in response to a
                      friend of hers who had criticized the work of Charles
                      Dickens.

                      Those who call him spurious and shoddy
                      Shall do so over my lifeless body,
                      I do invite such birds
                      To step outside and say those words.

                      Thank you, Dimitry, for all that you contribute.
                      With sincere best wishes,
                      Paul

                      --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                      Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
                      > Dear Paul,
                      >
                      > Ms. Cone's dictionary is a step forward, but still
                      > has a lot to
                      > improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations
                      > without
                      > explanation - nowadays anyone can find any number of
                      > relevant
                      > citations on computer. PED is more friendly in this
                      > regard. It also
                      > has many pioneering discoveries of the meanings, be
                      > they right or
                      > wrong. Ms. Cone's dictionary often simply preserves
                      > them and does not
                      > reflect active work of thought. It gives impression
                      > that
                      > philological Pali thought has somewhat stagnated
                      > since 1925.
                      >
                      > p> As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition
                      > published in 1851?
                      > p> I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of
                      > 1899 but I'm not sure
                      > p> this is the same thing you are referring to.
                      >
                      > I don't know its exact publication date. The fact is
                      > that
                      > Monier-Williams dictionary is not included in the
                      > list of consulted
                      > sources of PED.
                      >
                      > Etymology represents an important constituent of
                      > linguistic studies -
                      > alongside with actual context, commentarial glosses,
                      > definitions,
                      > equivalents in other languages. We should use all
                      > these tools for
                      > better understanding.
                      >
                      > Best Wishes,
                      > Dimitry
                      >
                      >
                      >


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