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Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta

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  • DC Wijeratna
    I have reason to believe that paa,naka means  one endowed with life or a living creature (being). So paa.nakajata would one born as a living creature . Or
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 21 7:22 AM
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      I have reason to believe that paa,naka means 'one endowed with life' or a living creature (being). So paa.nakajata would 'one born as a living creature'. Or simply a living creature, not necessarily 'small'. The word paa.naa is very common in the Pi.takas.
       D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




      ________________________________
      From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:53:51 PM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta





      PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can mean
      "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD under jaata.
      vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being devoured by
      various kinds of small creatures".

      Mahinda

      On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@ gmail.com> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Jim,
      >
      > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could
      > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind" (*manussa,jaata) , thus
      > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.
      >

      > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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    • Магубад Бурджан
      Dear Jim, Mahinda, Piya, Nina and all, I was not aware of the other implications of the words paa.naka and jaata. In Sanskrit (according to Monier-William s
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 21 3:58 PM
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        Dear Jim, Mahinda, Piya, Nina and all,

        I was not aware of the other implications of the words paa.naka and jaata. In Sanskrit (according to Monier-William's Dictionary) praa.naka is "living being, animal" and also "a worm". If this is relevant in Pali too, it could explain the diversity of translations. Jaata (past participle of janati/janaayati = Pali jaayati) also can mean "living being, creature" and also "race, kind, sort, class, species" and "a multitude or collection of things forming a class" (Ibid.); and for Pali Buddhadhatta Mahaathera also gives "a collection or variety". This seems logical to me if we compare the etymology of the word "genus" (from Latin = ancient Greek genos) from the Latin verb genere (= ancient Greek gignesthai) "to beget, to become". In Indo-Aryan languages the word-formation could follow similar ways.
        Still, in this case I don't feel competent to decide which interpretation is more adequate.

        Metta,
        Ardavarz

        --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
        From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
        Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:46 PM

















        Dear Piya and Mahinda,



        Thanks for your helpful comments. The use of -jaata as kind or group

        makes good sense and fits the context well. Abh 1077a (jaato bhuute

        caye jaata.m) gives two meanings. Caya refers to collection and one

        also finds jaata.m listed among the 29 synonyms of samuuho at Abh

        629-31.



        In Ledi Sayadaw's Niruttidiipanii, pp. 44-5, he lists gata, jaata, and

        anta as aagamas at the end of words (in reference to the Mahaavutti).

        The two examples given for jaata are atthajaata.m & dhammajaata. m. Not

        sure if this applies in our case though.



        Best wishes,

        Jim



        > Jim,

        >

        > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could

        > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind" (*manussa,jaata) , thus

        > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.

        >

        > With metta,

        >

        > Piya



        and from Mahinda:



        > PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can

        mean

        > "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD under

        jaata.

        > vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being

        devoured by

        > various kinds of small creatures".

        >

        > Mahinda































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Mahatmaya, Your mention I have reason. May we know what that reason is? Piya ... -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 22 8:55 AM
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          Dear Mahatmaya,

          Your mention "I have reason." May we know what that reason is?

          Piya


          On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:22 PM, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > I have reason to believe that paa,naka means 'one endowed with life' or a
          > living creature (being). So paa.nakajata would 'one born as a living
          > creature'. Or simply a living creature, not necessarily 'small'. The word
          > paa.naa is very common in the Pi.takas.
          > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@... <mahipal6%40gmail.com>>
          > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:53:51 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
          >
          >
          > PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can mean
          > "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD under jaata.
          > vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being devoured by
          > various kinds of small creatures".
          >
          > Mahinda
          >
          > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@ gmail.com> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Jim,
          > >
          > > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could
          > > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind" (*manussa,jaata) , thus
          > > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.
          > >
          >
          > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka .net
          > > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka .net/forge/ pdf/
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          > 13416488. 13509112. 10835568/ D=groups/ S=1705073947: MKP1/Y=YAHOO/
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        • Piya Tan
          Dear Ardavarz, I think genus, genos and jana are cognates in the Indo-Aryan family. We can split hairs over the origins, etymology and meanings of words.
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 22 9:30 AM
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            Dear Ardavarz,

            I think genus, genos and jana are cognates in the Indo-Aryan family.

            We can split hairs over the origins, etymology and meanings of words.
            Ultimately it is the context that decides how to render the word.

            We rarely translate the word, more often we translale the meaning.

            With metta,

            Piya Tan



            2009/4/22 ������� ������� <ardavarz@...>

            >
            >
            > Dear Jim, Mahinda, Piya, Nina and all,
            >
            > I was not aware of the other implications of the words paa.naka and jaata.
            > In Sanskrit (according to Monier-William's Dictionary) praa.naka is "living
            > being, animal" and also "a worm". If this is relevant in Pali too, it could
            > explain the diversity of translations. Jaata (past participle of
            > janati/janaayati = Pali jaayati) also can mean "living being, creature" and
            > also "race, kind, sort, class, species" and "a multitude or collection of
            > things forming a class" (Ibid.); and for Pali Buddhadhatta Mahaathera also
            > gives "a collection or variety". This seems logical to me if we compare the
            > etymology of the word "genus" (from Latin = ancient Greek genos) from the
            > Latin verb genere (= ancient Greek gignesthai) "to beget, to become". In
            > Indo-Aryan languages the word-formation could follow similar ways.
            > Still, in this case I don't feel competent to decide which interpretation
            > is more adequate.
            >
            > Metta,
            > Ardavarz
            >
            > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...<jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
            > wrote:
            > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@... <jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
            >
            > Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
            > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:46 PM
            >
            >
            > Dear Piya and Mahinda,
            >
            > Thanks for your helpful comments. The use of -jaata as kind or group
            >
            > makes good sense and fits the context well. Abh 1077a (jaato bhuute
            >
            > caye jaata.m) gives two meanings. Caya refers to collection and one
            >
            > also finds jaata.m listed among the 29 synonyms of samuuho at Abh
            >
            > 629-31.
            >
            > In Ledi Sayadaw's Niruttidiipanii, pp. 44-5, he lists gata, jaata, and
            >
            > anta as aagamas at the end of words (in reference to the Mahaavutti).
            >
            > The two examples given for jaata are atthajaata.m & dhammajaata. m. Not
            >
            > sure if this applies in our case though.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Jim
            >
            > > Jim,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could
            >
            > > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind" (*manussa,jaata) , thus
            >
            > > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > With metta,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Piya
            >
            > and from Mahinda:
            >
            > > PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can
            >
            > mean
            >
            > > "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD under
            >
            > jaata.
            >
            > > vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being
            >
            > devoured by
            >
            > > various kinds of small creatures".
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Mahinda
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



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          • Stefan Karpik
            Dear Ardavarz, Nina, Piya, Mahinda and Jim, I m going with Mahinda s translation as verified by Jim. I found Ardavarz s idea very appealing, but I am cautious
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 22 12:15 PM
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              Dear Ardavarz, Nina, Piya, Mahinda and Jim,

              I'm going with Mahinda's translation as verified by Jim.

              I found Ardavarz's idea very appealing, but I am cautious because I had the following problems:
              1: Pali has plenty of words for worm; it doesn't need a roundabout expression..
              2: The commentaries are silent about the meaning
              3: I heard that in the West the connection between flies and maggots wasn't known until about 200 years ago. So I wonder if 2,500 years ago in India, the connection had been made.

              I notice that no-one is criticising or endorsing my idea of "hatched there" for jaata, so I'll abandon it in this polite and erudite company.

              Thanks for your efforts; it's wonderful to have your support and ideas.

              Yours sincerely,

              Stefan Karpik

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Магубад Бурджан
              Yes, that is right. What I mean was that giving a meaning to a word could follow independently similar ways in a language family even in different cultures
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 22 4:59 PM
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                Yes, that is right. What I mean was that giving a meaning to a word could follow independently similar ways in a language family even in different cultures without immediate contact between them. Thus we could employ linguistic comparison in order to understand better some shades of the meaning. But you are right - chiefly the context is determinative.

                With metta,
                Ardavarz

                --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
                From: Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...>
                Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 7:30 PM

                Dear Ardavarz,

                I think genus, genos and jana are cognates in the Indo-Aryan family.

                We can split hairs over the origins, etymology and meanings of words.
                Ultimately it is the context that decides how to render the word.

                We rarely translate the word, more often we translale the meaning.

                With metta,

                Piya Tan



                2009/4/22 Магубад Бурджан <ardavarz@...>

                >
                >
                > Dear Jim, Mahinda, Piya, Nina and all,
                >
                > I was not aware of the other implications of the words paa.naka and jaata..
                > In Sanskrit (according to Monier-William's Dictionary) praa.naka is
                "living
                > being, animal" and also "a worm". If this is relevant in
                Pali too, it could
                > explain the diversity of translations. Jaata (past participle of
                > janati/janaayati = Pali jaayati) also can mean "living being,
                creature" and
                > also "race, kind, sort, class, species" and "a multitude or
                collection of
                > things forming a class" (Ibid.); and for Pali Buddhadhatta Mahaathera
                also
                > gives "a collection or variety". This seems logical to me if we
                compare the
                > etymology of the word "genus" (from Latin = ancient Greek genos)
                from the
                > Latin verb genere (= ancient Greek gignesthai) "to beget, to
                become". In
                > Indo-Aryan languages the word-formation could follow similar ways.
                > Still, in this case I don't feel competent to decide which
                interpretation
                > is more adequate.
                >
                > Metta,
                > Ardavarz
                >
                > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Jim Anderson
                <jimanderson.on@...<jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
                > wrote:
                > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...
                <jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
                >
                > Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:46 PM
                >
                >
                > Dear Piya and Mahinda,
                >
                > Thanks for your helpful comments. The use of -jaata as kind or group
                >
                > makes good sense and fits the context well. Abh 1077a (jaato bhuute
                >
                > caye jaata.m) gives two meanings. Caya refers to collection and one
                >
                > also finds jaata.m listed among the 29 synonyms of samuuho at Abh
                >
                > 629-31.
                >
                > In Ledi Sayadaw's Niruttidiipanii, pp. 44-5, he lists gata, jaata, and
                >
                > anta as aagamas at the end of words (in reference to the Mahaavutti).
                >
                > The two examples given for jaata are atthajaata.m & dhammajaata. m.
                Not
                >
                > sure if this applies in our case though.
                >
                > Best wishes,
                >
                > Jim
                >
                > > Jim,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could
                >
                > > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind"
                (*manussa,jaata) , thus
                >
                > > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > With metta,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Piya
                >
                > and from Mahinda:
                >
                > > PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can
                >
                > mean
                >
                > > "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD
                under
                >
                > jaata.
                >
                > > vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being
                >
                > devoured by
                >
                > > various kinds of small creatures".
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Mahinda
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                --
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                Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
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              • DC Wijeratna
                Dear Sir (Piya), Really my reason was the first of the five precepts. paa.naatipaataa ... . I am a traditional Buddhist (not Theravaadin)--I don t
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 23 1:28 AM
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                  Dear Sir (Piya),

                  Really my reason was the first of the five precepts. "paa.naatipaataa ...". I am a traditional Buddhist (not Theravaadin)--I don't understand Abhidhamma. Further the context (satipa.t.thaana sutta)supports a general interpretation. To cover all other insects animals etc. not mentioned in the passage. As you mentioned, it is the context that matters. What I mentioned agrees also with the Sinhala translation of the Tipi.taka.
                   D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                  ________________________________
                  From: Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:25:04 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta





                  Dear Mahatmaya,

                  Your mention "I have reason." May we know what that reason is?

                  Piya

                  On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:22 PM, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@ yahoo.com>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > I have reason to believe that paa,naka means 'one endowed with life' or a
                  > living creature (being). So paa.nakajata would 'one born as a living
                  > creature'. Or simply a living creature, not necessarily 'small'. The word
                  > paa.naa is very common in the Pi.takas.
                  > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@gmail. com <mahipal6%40gmail. com>>
                  > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <Pali%40yahoogroups .com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:53:51 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Pali] translation of paa.nikajaata in Satipatthana sutta
                  >
                  >
                  > PTS Dictionary actually mentions that -jaata in some contexts can mean
                  > "kinds of..." Thus gandhajaata: kinds of incense. See PTSD under jaata.
                  > vividhehi paa.nakajaatehi khajjamaana must surely mean " being devoured by
                  > various kinds of small creatures".
                  >
                  > Mahinda
                  >
                  > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@ gmail.com> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Jim,
                  > >
                  > > I guess the suffix -jaata (since the Comentaries are silent) could
                  > > mean something like "-kind" and in "mankind" (*manussa,jaata) , thus
                  > > referring to a group, kind, etc. It is a generic suffix.
                  > >
                  >
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