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Re: [Pali] AN2.1.10 Vassuupanaayikasutta (1/1)

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  • Kumara Bhikkhu
    It would indeed be hard to translate this correctly without basic knowledge in vassa observation. There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 31, 2009
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      It would indeed be hard to translate this correctly without basic knowledge in vassa observation.

      There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains residence), one later by a month. The earlier spans the first 3 months of the seasonal vassa (of 4 months), and the later the last 3 months. Thus, they overlap by 2 months.

      Normally a monk enters the earlier one. However, should there be some valid reason, he can to enter the later one.

      E.g., the earlier vassa entry for this year according to the Burmese reckoning is on 7 July (which is the day immediately after the hot season), and the later is 6 August.

      With this, perhaps you'd like to rework the translation.

      For details on vassa observation, see here: <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch11.html>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch11.html

      kb

      Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 03:05 PM 29-03-09:
      >Dear Nina and friends,
      >
      >10. "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa. Katamaa dve? Purimikaa ca pacchimikaa ca. Imaa kho, bhikkhave, dve vassuupanaayikaa"ti. Dasama.m.
      >
      >--------------------------------------------------
      >
      >Vassuupanaayikasutta
      >periods marked by the beginning of rain / sutta
      >On Periods Marked by the Beginning of Rain
      >
      >"Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
      >these two / monks / periods marked by the beginning of rain
      >"O monks, these (are) the two periods marked by the beginning of rain.
      >
      >* dvemaa = dve imaa: these two.
      > - dve (num) two.
      > - aya.m (pron) this.
      >* bhikkhu (m) monk.
      >* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period marked by the begining of rain.
      > - vassa (m) rain.
      > - upanaayika (adj) beginning.
      >
      >Katamaa dve?
      >which / two
      >Which are the two?
      >
      >* katama (pron) which.
      >
      >Purimikaa ca pacchimikaa ca.
      >first / and / last / and
      >The first and the last.
      >
      >* purimaka (adj) first.
      >* pacchimaka (adj) last.
      >
      >Imaa kho, bhikkhave, dve vassuupanaayikaa"ti.
      >these / indeed / monks / two / periods marked by the beginning of rain
      >Indeed, O monks, these are two periods marked by the beginning of rain."
      >
      >* kho (indec) indeed.
      >
      >Dasama.m.
      >tenth
      >The tenth.
      >
      >Kammakara.navaggo pa.thamo.
      >Kammakara.na Vagga, the first.
      >
      >
      >Is this an indication of the knowledge of climatic differences in India? Does a monk have to observe two Vassas if he happens to be in two locations in the same year, and he is there for the period of Vassa at each location? Is this being extended to areas outside India?
      >
      >
      >metta,
      >Yong Peng.
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina, thank you. I gather from your discussion that the rainy season is taken to last for four months. However, the typical rains
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 25, 2009
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        Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,

        thank you. I gather from your discussion that the rainy season is taken to last for four months. However, the typical rains residence (vassaavaasa) for monks is only three months, and a monk gets to choose either the first three or the last three months.

        So, the term which requires rework is vassuupanaayikaa:

        * vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
        [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
        - vassa (m) rain.
        - upanaayika (adj) beginning.

        Hence,

        "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
        these two / monks / periods for observance of the rains retreat
        "O monks, these (are) the two periods for observance of the rains retreat.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:

        There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains residence), one later by a month. The earlier spans the first 3 months of the seasonal vassa (of 4 months), and the later the last 3 months. Thus, they overlap by 2 months.

        Normally a monk enters the earlier one. However, should there be some valid reason, he can to enter the later one.

        E.g., the earlier vassa entry for this year according to the Burmese reckoning is on 7 July (which is the day immediately after the hot season), and the later is 6 August.

        With this, perhaps you'd like to rework the translation.

        > "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
        > these two / monks / periods marked by the beginning of rain
        > "O monks, these (are) the two periods marked by the beginning of rain.
      • Kumara Bhikkhu
        I don t find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would prefer simply vassa entry I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 27, 2009
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          I don't find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would prefer simply
          vassa entry
          I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.

          kb

          Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 11:57 AM 26-04-09:
          >Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
          >
          >thank you. I gather from your discussion that the rainy season is taken to last for four months. However, the typical rains residence (vassaavaasa) for monks is only three months, and a monk gets to choose either the first three or the last three months.
          >
          >So, the term which requires rework is vassuupanaayikaa:
          >
          >* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
          > [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
          > - vassa (m) rain.
          > - upanaayika (adj) beginning.
          >
          >Hence,
          >
          >"Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
          >these two / monks / periods for observance of the rains retreat
          >"O monks, these (are) the two periods for observance of the rains retreat.
          >
          >metta,
          >Yong Peng.
          >
          >
          >--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:
          >
          >There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains residence), one later by a month. The earlier spans the first 3 months of the seasonal vassa (of 4 months), and the later the last 3 months. Thus, they overlap by 2 months.
          >
          >Normally a monk enters the earlier one. However, should there be some valid reason, he can to enter the later one.
          >
          >E.g., the earlier vassa entry for this year according to the Burmese reckoning is on 7 July (which is the day immediately after the hot season), and the later is 6 August.
          >
          >With this, perhaps you'd like to rework the translation.
          >
          >> "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
          >> these two / monks / periods marked by the beginning of rain
          >> "O monks, these (are) the two periods marked by the beginning of rain.
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
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          >
          >
          >
        • DC Wijeratna
          Dear Yong Peng, I thought I would make a small contribution to the discussion about Vassuupanaayika. My comments are based on Sri Lankan Practice. Vassa
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 29, 2009
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            Dear Yong Peng,

            I thought I would make a small contribution to the discussion about Vassuupanaayika. My comments are based on Sri Lankan Practice.
            Vassa originally (most probably) meant rain. However, the meaning in religious practice was ' rains retreat',
            Upanaayika means for a bhikkhu to begin to observe the rains retreat. Or to commence the vassa observances. A bhikkhu must observe 'Vassa'. It is a disciplinary rule. According to the Sutta it could be early/before or later/after. I have found the dates form a Sinhala book 'Vinaya Kamma Book' by Ven. Rerukaane Chandavimala, generally accepted as an authority in Sri Lanaka, as: July and the other is August (these months are approximate). The actual dates are calculated on the basis of the almanack and the lunar calender.

            So as far as the Theravaada tradition is concerned, 'Vassuupanayikaa' refers to the dates on which Vassa commences. .

            D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kumara Bhikkhu
            Or, if we take the ika to refer to the day, then it s days of vassa entry thereby making it clearer. kb
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 29, 2009
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              Or, if we take the "ika" to refer to the day, then it's
              days of vassa entry
              thereby making it clearer.

              kb

              Kumara Bhikkhu wrote thus at 11:09 28/04/2009:
              >I don't find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would prefer simply
              > vassa entry
              >I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.
              >
              >kb
              >
              >Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 11:57 AM 26-04-09:
              >>Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
              >>
              >>thank you. I gather from your discussion that the rainy season is taken to last for four months. However, the typical rains residence (vassaavaasa) for monks is only three months, and a monk gets to choose either the first three or the last three months.
              >>
              >>So, the term which requires rework is vassuupanaayikaa:
              >>
              >>* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
              >> [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
              >> - vassa (m) rain.
              >> - upanaayika (adj) beginning.
              >>
              >>Hence,
              >>
              >>"Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
              >>these two / monks / periods for observance of the rains retreat
              >>"O monks, these (are) the two periods for observance of the rains retreat.
              >>
              >>metta,
              >>Yong Peng.
              >>
              >>
              >>--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:
              >>
              >>There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains residence), one later by a month. The earlier spans the first 3 months of the seasonal vassa (of 4 months), and the later the last 3 months. Thus, they overlap by 2 months.
              >>
              >>Normally a monk enters the earlier one. However, should there be some valid reason, he can to enter the later one.
              >>
              >>E.g., the earlier vassa entry for this year according to the Burmese reckoning is on 7 July (which is the day immediately after the hot season), and the later is 6 August.
              >>
              >>With this, perhaps you'd like to rework the translation.
              >>
              >>> "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
              >>> these two / monks / periods marked by the beginning of rain
              >>> "O monks, these (are) the two periods marked by the beginning of rain.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>------------------------------------
              >>
              >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              >>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              >>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              >>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              >>[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              >>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              >>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
            • DC Wijeratna
              This is further to my e-m on the above subject. Everything about the vassuupanaayikaa is given in Vinaya Mahavagga: vassuupanaayikakkhandhaka, No need to guess
              Message 6 of 9 , May 1, 2009
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                This is further to my e-m on the above subject.

                Everything about the vassuupanaayikaa is given in Vinaya Mahavagga: vassuupanaayikakkhandhaka, No need to guess the meaning.

                Hope this information will help.
                 D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Ven. Kumara and DC, thank you. I guess we have finally solved the mystery. * vassuupanaayikaa (f) day marking the beginning of the rains retreat. [lit.]
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2009
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                  Dear Ven. Kumara and DC,

                  thank you. I guess we have finally solved the mystery.

                  * vassuupanaayikaa (f) day marking the beginning of the rains retreat.
                  [lit.] beginning of rain.
                  - vassa (m) rain.
                  - upanaayika (adj) beginning.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:

                  Or, if we take the "ika" to refer to the day, then it's days of vassa entry thereby making it clearer.

                  > I don't find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would
                  > prefer simply vassa entry
                  > I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.

                  >>* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
                  >> [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
                  >> - vassa (m) rain.
                  >> - upanaayika (adj) beginning.
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