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Saddaniiti Chapter 1 (3)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, viisatiyaa upasaggesu yena kenaci upasaggena attha-visesakaara.nena pa.tibaddhaa attha-visesam-pi dhaareti-iti dhaatu, among twenty / among
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 22, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      viisatiyaa upasaggesu yena kenaci upasaggena attha-visesakaara.nena pa.tibaddhaa attha-visesam-pi dhaareti-iti dhaatu,
      among twenty / among verbal prefixes / by which / by any / by verbal prefix / by applying distinction of meaning / from dependencies / distinction of meaning too / bears / verbal root
      "bears the distinction of meaning, too, from dependencies by applying a distinction of meaning by any verbal prefix among twenty verbal prefixes", the verbal root (is),

      * viisati (num) twenty.
      ** upasagga (m) verbal prefix, preposition.
      * visesa (m) distinction.
      * pa.tibaddha (adj) dependent on.

      "aya.m imissaa attho, ayamito paccayo paro"ti-aadinaa aneka-p-pakaarena pa.n.ditehi dhaariyati esaa-ti-pi dhaatu,
      this / to this / meaning / this-hence / verbal suffix / other-in this way / by way of many / by wise / is known by heart / this-too / verbal root
      "'this meaning to this, hence this other verbal suffix', in this way, this is known by heart by the wise in various ways" too, the verbal root,

      ** paccaya (m) verbal suffix.
      * aadi-naa (indec) in this way.
      * aneka (adj) many, various.
      * pakaara (m) way.
      * pa.n.dita (adj) wise.
      * dhaariyati (passive of dhaareti) is known by heart.

      vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m ayalohaadidhaatuuhi viya-a-ti-pi dhaatu.
      arrange / wise / from this / word-result / to made of iron, copper and so on / from the elements to iron, copper and so on / as-too / verbal root
      "as from this ayalohaadidhaatu to ayalohaadimaya, the wise arrange the word result" too, the verbal root.

      * vidahati (v) arranges.
      * viduu (adj) wise.
      * nipphatti (f) result.
      * aya (n) iron.
      * loha (n) copper.
      * viya (indec) like, as.


      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      Project page: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, thank you for all this work. ... N: I had some trouble with paccaya as verbal suffix. What about other condition ? The previous line speaks
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 23, 2009
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        Dear Yong Peng,
        thank you for all this work.

        Op 22-mrt-2009, om 13:24 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

        > aya.m imissaa attho, ayamito paccayo paro"ti-aadinaa aneka-p-
        > pakaarena pa.n.ditehi dhaariyati esaa-ti-pi dhaatu,
        > this / to this / meaning / this-hence / verbal suffix / other-in
        > this way / by way of many / by wise / is known by heart / this-
        > too / verbal root
        > "'this meaning to this, hence this other verbal suffix', in this
        > way, this is known by heart by the wise in various ways" too, the
        > verbal root,
        --------
        N: I had some trouble with paccaya as verbal suffix. What about
        'other condition'? The previous line speaks about "bears the
        distinction of meaning, too, from dependencies by applying a
        distinction of meaning by any verbal prefix among twenty verbal
        prefixes.
        I am looking at dependency, pa.tibaddha and then think of condition
        in the next line.
        ------
        Y.P.: vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m
        ayalohaadidhaatuuhi viya-a-ti-pi dhaatu.
        arrange / wise / from this / word-result / to made of iron, copper
        and so on / from the elements to iron, copper and so on / as-too /
        verbal root
        "as from this ayalohaadidhaatu to ayalohaadimaya, the wise arrange
        the word result" too, the verbal root.
        --------
        N: As to meaning, I think that :the wise arrange the word-result as
        an element, such as the elements of iron or copper.
        But all this is difficult to translate and then, what does he mean by
        it? He wants to emphasize that verbal suffixes are like elements. The
        wise 'bear this in mind', rather than know by heart.
        I do not pretend that I can translate this, but these are just some
        thoughts. Perhaps someone else will help.

        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mahinda Palihawadana
        No, no,no. That is altogether off the track, dear YP. In these three instances, the author continues to give various possible interpretations for the use of
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 23, 2009
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          No, no,no. That is altogether off the track, dear YP. In these three
          instances, the author continues to give various possible interpretations for
          the use of the word dhaatu. I think this is what they mean, roughly
          speaking:
          (1) The word dhaatru is so-called because it bears a distinct sense, when
          associated with one or another prefix for the sake of that distinct sense.
          (2) It is also so-called because it is being 'held' by learned persons in
          various ways, such as "this its meaning", "this suffix follows it" and so
          on.
          (3) It is also so-called because learned persons ordain the production of
          words with it, just as (people ordain the production of an object of iron ,
          copper etc with elements such as iron, copper etc.

          In the case of (1), the reference is to the fact that prefixes at
          times radically alter the meaning of roots, For example, while the root gam
          (gacchati) by itself means "to go", it means "to come" when associated with
          the prefix aa (aagacchati).

          Mahinda

          On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

          > Dear friends,
          >
          > viisatiyaa upasaggesu yena kenaci upasaggena attha-visesakaara.nena
          > pa.tibaddhaa attha-visesam-pi dhaareti-iti dhaatu,
          > among twenty / among verbal prefixes / by which / by any / by verbal prefix
          > / by applying distinction of meaning / from dependencies / distinction of
          > meaning too / bears / verbal root
          > "bears the distinction of meaning, too, from dependencies by applying a
          > distinction of meaning by any verbal prefix among twenty verbal prefixes",
          > the verbal root (is),
          >
          > * viisati (num) twenty.
          > ** upasagga (m) verbal prefix, preposition.
          > * visesa (m) distinction.
          > * pa.tibaddha (adj) dependent on.
          >
          > "aya.m imissaa attho, ayamito paccayo paro"ti-aadinaa aneka-p-pakaarena
          > pa.n.ditehi dhaariyati esaa-ti-pi dhaatu,
          > this / to this / meaning / this-hence / verbal suffix / other-in this way /
          > by way of many / by wise / is known by heart / this-too / verbal root
          > "'this meaning to this, hence this other verbal suffix', in this way, this
          > is known by heart by the wise in various ways" too, the verbal root,
          >
          > ** paccaya (m) verbal suffix.
          > * aadi-naa (indec) in this way.
          > * aneka (adj) many, various.
          > * pakaara (m) way.
          > * pa.n.dita (adj) wise.
          > * dhaariyati (passive of dhaareti) is known by heart.
          >
          > vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m
          > ayalohaadidhaatuuhi viya-a-ti-pi dhaatu.
          > arrange / wise / from this / word-result / to made of iron, copper and so
          > on / from the elements to iron, copper and so on / as-too / verbal root
          > "as from this ayalohaadidhaatu to ayalohaadimaya, the wise arrange the word
          > result" too, the verbal root.
          >
          > * vidahati (v) arranges.
          > * viduu (adj) wise.
          > * nipphatti (f) result.
          > * aya (n) iron.
          > * loha (n) copper.
          > * viya (indec) like, as.
          >
          > metta,
          > Yong Peng.
          >
          > Project page: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Mahinda, Thank you very much for your help and your clear explanation. The literal translation is quite a struggle. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2009, om 1:15 heeft
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 24, 2009
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            Dear Mahinda,
            Thank you very much for your help and your clear explanation. The
            literal translation is quite a struggle.
            Nina.
            Op 24-mrt-2009, om 1:15 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
            geschreven:

            > In these three
            > instances, the author continues to give various possible
            > interpretations for
            > the use of the word dhaatu.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina and Mahinda, thank you. I do find the style and language of Saddaniti obscure and difficult, but I hope with some assistance I will soon overcome
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 25, 2009
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              Dear Nina and Mahinda,

              thank you. I do find the style and language of Saddaniti obscure and difficult, but I hope with some assistance I will soon overcome these difficulties and make better translations of the text. I make another attempt with (3) as follows:

              vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m ayalohaadidhaatuuhi viya-a-ti-pi dhaatu.
              arrange / wise ones / from this / word-result / to made of iron,
              copper and so on / from the elements of iron, copper and so on /
              as-too / verbal root
              "just as (the result) made of iron, copper, etc. (is arranged) from the elements of iron, copper, etc., the wise ones arrange the word result from this [i.e. the verbal root dhaatu]", the verbal root (is) too.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Mahinda Palihawadana wrote:

              In these three instances, the author continues to give various possible interpretations for the use of the word dhaatu. I think this is what they mean, roughly speaking:

              (1) The word dhaatru is so-called because it bears a distinct sense, when associated with one or another prefix for the sake of that distinct sense.
              (2) It is also so-called because it is being 'held' by learned persons in various ways, such as "this its meaning", "this suffix follows it" and so on.
              (3) It is also so-called because learned persons ordain the production of words with it, just as (people ordain the production of an object of iron , copper etc with elements such as iron, copper etc.

              In the case of (1), the reference is to the fact that prefixes at times radically alter the meaning of roots, For example, while the root gam (gacchati) by itself means "to go", it means "to come" when associated with the prefix aa (aagacchati).

              > vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m
              > ayalohaadidhaatuuhi viya-a-ti-pi dhaatu.
              > arrange / wise / from this / word-result / to made of iron,
              > copper and so on / from the elements to iron, copper and so on /
              > as-too / verbal root
              > "as from this ayalohaadidhaatu to ayalohaadimaya, the wise
              > arrange the word result" too, the verbal root.
            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              ... Dear Ong Yong Pen and Nina, ... (4) iti pi dhaatu: this is the typical end of an an explanatory statement. Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 28, 2009
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                On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > I do find the style and language of Saddaniti obscure and difficult, but I
                > hope with some assistance I will soon overcome these difficulties and make
                > better translations of the text. I make another attempt.
                >

                Dear Ong Yong Pen and Nina,
                :

                > I would like to clarify my earlier comment, which you will find below:

                >
                >
                > vidahanti viduno etaaya saddanipphatti.m aya-loha-aadi-maya.m ayalohaadi-dhaatuuhi
                > viya
                >
                >
                >
                > iti-pi dhaatu.
                >
                >
                >
                > In this sentence there is a comparison, as we can see from the word viya
                > (like). The comparison is between finished metallic objects and finished
                > words. Skilled persons form finished objects with the �raw elements� like
                > iron and copper. Similarly persons with language skills form finished words
                > with �roots�. For both �elements� and �roots�, the Pali word is �dhaatu�.
                > For �form the Pali word in this sentence is �vidahanti�. �vidahati� is from
                > the root DHAA with the prefix VI. So the author surmises that the word
                > DHAATU can be derived from this root. That is etymologically, according to
                > this opinion, DHAATU means �what froms� or �what is used to form�.
                >
                >
                >
                > Note 1) The root DHAA is a very versatile root. The word VIDAHATI that
                > comes from it has the Sanskrit equivalent VIDADHAATI. PTS Dictionary gives
                > the meanings of VIDAHATI as �arrange, appoint, assign, provide, practice�
                > etc. Monier-Williams Skt Dictionary gives a lot more possible meanings for
                > VIDADHAATI (many of which are equally applicable to Pali). Among them are
                > �put in order, arrange, prepare, make ready, ordain, form, create, build,
                > establish, effect, produce, cause, occasion, make�. (In both Pali and Skt
                > the Creator is VIDHAATAA (Nom, sg from Skt vidhaat.r and Pali vidhaatu). So
                > we can say that vidahanti in this context has a meaning like � form/make/
                > produce/ effect�. This seems better than my earlier suggestion �ordain�,
                > though I don�t think that is wrong..
                >
                >
                >
                > (2).We can translate: As (viya) skilled persons (viduno) form (vidaahanti)
                > an object made of iron, copper etc. (ayalohaadimaya.m), with elements such
                > as iron , copper etc. (so also skilled persons form) with this (i.e. a
                > �root�) the production of words.For this reason too (iti pi), (it is called)
                > dhaatu.
                >
                >
                >
                > (3) �viya� is translated above �as .. so�; �viduno vidahanti� is taken as
                > �understood in the second instance, referring to (linguistically) skilled
                > persons; �sadda-nipphatti� is translated as �production of words�,
                > �nipphatti� being the noun derived from �nipphaadeti: bring forth, produce,
                > as in PTSD).
                >

                (4) iti pi dhaatu: this is the typical end of an an explanatory statement.

                Mahinda



                >
                >


                >
                >
                >
                > .
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Mahinda, Thank you for your interesting explanation. Difficult to find out what is meant, I would not be able to get all this on my own. Nina. Op
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 28, 2009
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                  Dear Mahinda,
                  Thank you for your interesting explanation. Difficult to find out
                  what is meant, I would not be able to get all this on my own.
                  Nina.
                  Op 28-apr-2009, om 10:50 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                  geschreven:

                  >> The comparison is between finished metallic objects and finished
                  >> words. Skilled persons form finished objects with the �raw
                  >> elements� like
                  >> iron and copper. Similarly persons with language skills form
                  >> finished words
                  >> with �roots�. For both �elements� and �roots�, the Pali word is
                  >> �dhaatu�.
                  >> For �form the Pali word in this sentence is �vidahanti�.
                  >> �vidahati� is from
                  >> the root DHAA with the prefix VI. So the author surmises that the
                  >> word
                  >> DHAATU can be derived from this root. That is etymologically,
                  >> according to
                  >> this opinion, DHAATU means �what forms� or �what is used to form�.
                  >>



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                  Dear Nina, Actually, it is not difficult. It may look difficult, because I tried to do a literal translation. Now we can make it really simple. The verbal root
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 28, 2009
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                    Dear Nina,
                    Actually, it is not difficult. It may look difficult, because I tried to do
                    a literal translation. Now we can make it really simple.

                    The verbal root is called DHAA-tu because linguistically skilled people use
                    it to FORM words just as skilled craftsmen use elements like iron and copper
                    to make iron objects and copper objects.

                    Aggava.msa's "etaaya (=dhaatuyaa) viduno saddanipphatti.m vidahanti"= "With
                    it skilled persons occasion the production of words".He means that the word
                    'dhaatu' is proper for the verbal root because its own root is that which we
                    find in the word 'vidahanti'; and he says the same word 'dhaatu' is
                    appropriately used to indicate material elements like iron and copper which
                    are used to produce more complex objects.

                    Mahinda

                    On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                    > Dear Mahinda,
                    > Thank you for your interesting explanation. Difficult to find out
                    > what is meant.
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Mahinda, Op 29-apr-2009, om 2:27 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende ... N: Now it is clearer, after you explained vidahanti: which has dha as root. I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 29, 2009
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                      Dear Mahinda,
                      Op 29-apr-2009, om 2:27 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                      geschreven:

                      > He means that the word
                      > 'dhaatu' is proper for the verbal root because its own root is that
                      > which we
                      > find in the word 'vidahanti'; and he says the same word 'dhaatu' is
                      > appropriately used to indicate material elements like iron and
                      > copper which
                      > are used to produce more complex objects.
                      -------
                      N: Now it is clearer, after you explained vidahanti: which has dha as
                      root. I see that Sanskrit helps you.
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Mahinda and Nina, yes, thank you, Mahinda, for your patience. I again have to say that Saddaniiti is a completely different genre from the suttas, and the
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 3, 2009
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                        Dear Mahinda and Nina,

                        yes, thank you, Mahinda, for your patience. I again have to say that Saddaniiti is a completely different genre from the suttas, and the uninitiated, like myself, will take a little while to get used to it.

                        After the last two bouts of your explanation, it is even much clearer, and such information will be very useful to our continuation of this study. I have not peep to see what is coming up next, but so far, we have been introducing 'dhaatu' as the verbal root, and the author has been explaining to his Pali readers and students why 'dhaatu', although we already know its meaning in English, is chosen as the word for this concept of a 'grammatical root'. Thank you.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.



                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                        > He means that the word 'dhaatu' is proper for the verbal root because its own root is that which we find in the word 'vidahanti'; and he says the same word 'dhaatu' is appropriately used to indicate material elements like iron and copper which are used to produce more complex objects.

                        N: Now it is clearer, after you explained vidahanti: which has dha as root. I see that Sanskrit helps you.
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