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Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9

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  • John Kelly
    Dear friends, I have just posted my translations of the exercises from chapters 8 and 9 of the New Course in Reading Pali by Gair and Karunatillake. You can
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 29 3:07 PM
      Dear friends,
      I have just posted my translations of the exercises
      from chapters 8 and 9 of the "New Course in Reading
      Pali" by Gair and Karunatillake. You can find the
      document, which includes the Pali and English, on the
      following directory in this group's "files"
      depository:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/Gair%20Karunatillake/

      I look forward to criticisms and translation
      improvements from any of you who are interested.

      Metta,
      John

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    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
      Dear John, We ve done three fourths! The finish is close. My suggestions are: Lesson 8 Section 1 1. atha kho - and then; How tranquil are the faculties of
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 3, 2002
        Dear John,

        We've done three fourths! The finish is close.

        My suggestions are:

        Lesson 8
        Section 1
        1.
        atha kho - and then;

        "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama, how clean and
        unblemished the complexion."

        'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant', therefore instead
        of 'master' 'sir' fits better.

        2.
        tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;

        'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The narrational Pali present
        is better rendered by past time.

        'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we say'.

        bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?

        3.
        'and lapses into everything it wishes';

        sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;

        patiruupa - example;
        kilissati - defiles himself;

        Let one firstly set an example himself;
        Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't defile himself.

        Section 2
        1.
        'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';

        Mahaavana - Great Forest;

        'point out the visible fruit of generosity'

        daayaka - donor;

        bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj' in Sanskrit
        dictionary);

        daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti - generous lay donor
        is well served by virtuous people;

        ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;

        2.
        pavatti - perpetration;

        ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
        yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);

        3.
        "If a monk is of such character,..."

        kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;

        4.
        ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who after death is reborn in
        the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn in Kashmir?

        With the same (speed), great king.

        cintita is a past participle, therefore:

        I have thought, venerable sir.

        About which (place) you thought slower, great king, and about which
        faster?

        With the same (speed), great king.

        Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn in the
        Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in Kashmir,
        do it with the same speed (in the same amount of time).

        Give me one more analogy.

        What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in the sky and one
        sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a tree, if they land (on
        a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one would land on the ground
        first, and which one later?

        Lesson 9
        1.
        ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.

        bhadante - venerable sir;

        mahaapadesa - great argument;

        eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;

        otaariyamaana - being collated (according to Margaret Cone
        dictionary);

        Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying these sentences
        and syllables, they should collate them to the discourses, and compare
        them with the rules of discipline.

        3.
        chanda.m - desire;

        bhadra - good fortune;

        But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees good fortune.

        Just as poison does not enter when there is no wound,
        so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.

        Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without taints get to
        highest calm.

        Section 2
        1.
        bhante - venerable sir;

        ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus he undertakes
        well this world and the next.

        2.
        "What if I will preach the Doctrine."

        3.
        Who will conquer this earth,
        And this world of yama, together with its gods?
        Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the truth
        Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?

        In second verse there's no question.

        papupphaka.m - blooming flower
        (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);

        Having realized that this body is like foam,
        Understanding its illusory nature,
        And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
        One may go unseen past the king of death.

        maana - conceit;

        That fool who considers himself fool,
        Is in fact wise because of this;
        Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
        He is indeed called a fool.

        Hopefully these suggestions will help.

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • John Kelly
        Dear Dimitry, It s weeks since you posted your thoughtful response to my translations of the exercises in lessons 8 and 9 (which I posted at
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 26, 2002
          Dear Dimitry,
          It's weeks since you posted your thoughtful response
          to my translations of the exercises in lessons 8 and 9
          (which I posted at
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/Gair%20Karunatillake/
          ), and I've only now had a chance to review carefully
          my original translations with your comments in mind.

          The majority of your suggestions were significant
          improvements on my attempt, and in some cases I really
          was a little off the mark. Thank you!

          I just have a couple of questions:
          Lesson 8, Section 1, #3.
          You suggest "patiruupa" s/b translated by "example".
          I used "proper", based on the book's glossary and PED
          which indicates the meaning as "fit, proper, suitable,
          befitting, seeming". Can you elaborate on your
          interpretation?

          Lesson 9, Section 2, #3.
          You suggest "pappupphaka.m" s/b translated as
          "blooming flowers" (based on the Sanskrit dictionary),
          but Gair and PED both translate this as "flower-tipped
          arrow".

          Thanks again for all your great help with this,
          John
          --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
          Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
          > Dear John,
          >
          > We've done three fourths! The finish is close.
          >
          > My suggestions are:
          >
          > Lesson 8
          > Section 1
          > 1.
          > atha kho - and then;
          >
          > "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama,
          > how clean and
          > unblemished the complexion."
          >
          > 'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant',
          > therefore instead
          > of 'master' 'sir' fits better.
          >
          > 2.
          > tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;
          >
          > 'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The
          > narrational Pali present
          > is better rendered by past time.
          >
          > 'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we
          > say'.
          >
          > bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?
          >
          > 3.
          > 'and lapses into everything it wishes';
          >
          > sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;
          >
          > patiruupa - example;
          > kilissati - defiles himself;
          >
          > Let one firstly set an example himself;
          > Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't
          > defile himself.
          >
          > Section 2
          > 1.
          > 'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';
          >
          > Mahaavana - Great Forest;
          >
          > 'point out the visible fruit of generosity'
          >
          > daayaka - donor;
          >
          > bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj'
          > in Sanskrit
          > dictionary);
          >
          > daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti -
          > generous lay donor
          > is well served by virtuous people;
          >
          > ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;
          >
          > 2.
          > pavatti - perpetration;
          >
          > ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
          > yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);
          >
          > 3.
          > "If a monk is of such character,..."
          >
          > kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;
          >
          > 4.
          > ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who
          > after death is reborn in
          > the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn
          > in Kashmir?
          >
          > With the same (speed), great king.
          >
          > cintita is a past participle, therefore:
          >
          > I have thought, venerable sir.
          >
          > About which (place) you thought slower, great king,
          > and about which
          > faster?
          >
          > With the same (speed), great king.
          >
          > Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn
          > in the
          > Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in
          > Kashmir,
          > do it with the same speed (in the same amount of
          > time).
          >
          > Give me one more analogy.
          >
          > What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in
          > the sky and one
          > sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a
          > tree, if they land (on
          > a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one
          > would land on the ground
          > first, and which one later?
          >
          > Lesson 9
          > 1.
          > ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.
          >
          > bhadante - venerable sir;
          >
          > mahaapadesa - great argument;
          >
          > eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;
          >
          > otaariyamaana - being collated (according to
          > Margaret Cone
          > dictionary);
          >
          > Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying
          > these sentences
          > and syllables, they should collate them to the
          > discourses, and compare
          > them with the rules of discipline.
          >
          > 3.
          > chanda.m - desire;
          >
          > bhadra - good fortune;
          >
          > But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees
          > good fortune.
          >
          > Just as poison does not enter when there is no
          > wound,
          > so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.
          >
          > Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without
          > taints get to
          > highest calm.
          >
          > Section 2
          > 1.
          > bhante - venerable sir;
          >
          > ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus
          > he undertakes
          > well this world and the next.
          >
          > 2.
          > "What if I will preach the Doctrine."
          >
          > 3.
          > Who will conquer this earth,
          > And this world of yama, together with its gods?
          > Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the
          > truth
          > Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?
          >
          > In second verse there's no question.
          >
          > papupphaka.m - blooming flower
          > (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);
          >
          > Having realized that this body is like foam,
          > Understanding its illusory nature,
          > And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
          > One may go unseen past the king of death.
          >
          > maana - conceit;
          >
          > That fool who considers himself fool,
          > Is in fact wise because of this;
          > Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
          > He is indeed called a fool.
          >
          > Hopefully these suggestions will help.
          >
          > Metta,
          > Dimitry
          >
          >
          >


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        • äÍÉÔÒÉÊ áÌÅËÓÅÅ×ÉÞ é×
          Dear John, Thank you for your persistent efforts. Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent is a common practice widely used by
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 27, 2002
            Dear John,

            Thank you for your persistent efforts.

            Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent is a
            common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
            himself.

            When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such resources
            as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we should
            use such resources wisely in difficult cases.

            JK> You suggest "patiruupa" s/b translated by "example".
            JK> I used "proper", based on the book's glossary and PED
            JK> which indicates the meaning as "fit, proper, suitable,
            JK> befitting, seeming". Can you elaborate on your
            JK> interpretation?

            It is based on Sanskrit 'pratiruupa' 'a pattern, model for imitation',

            'pratiruupacarya' 'exemplary in conduct, worthy of imitation'

            'pratiruupacaryaa' 'suitable or exemplary conduct'.

            (As an adjective Sanskrit 'pratiruupa' can also mean 'suitable,
            proper, fit', however here it is apparently a noun.)

            attaana.m ... patiruupe nivesaye - he should set an example himself
            (literally 'he should establish himself in the model of imitation').

            JK> You suggest "pappupphaka.m" s/b translated as
            JK> "blooming flowers" (based on the Sanskrit dictionary),
            JK> but Gair and PED both translate this as "flower-tipped
            JK> arrow".

            Some articles in PED are based on the informed guesses, taking in
            account all resources available at that time. Nowadays more resources
            are available. So I would translate it as 'blossoms' (since Sanskrit
            'prapu.spita' means 'flowering, in blossom, blooming').

            Kind regards,
            Dimitry

            JK> --- "Дмитрий Алексеевич Ивахненко (Dimitry A.
            JK> Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
            >> Dear John,
            >>
            >> We've done three fourths! The finish is close.
            >>
            >> My suggestions are:
            >>
            >> Lesson 8
            >> Section 1
            >> 1.
            >> atha kho - and then;
            >>
            >> "How tranquil are the faculties of master Gotama,
            >> how clean and
            >> unblemished the complexion."
            >>
            >> 'bho' is an adress to equals or juniors 'bhavant',
            >> therefore instead
            >> of 'master' 'sir' fits better.
            >>
            >> 2.
            >> tena kho pana samayena - and at that very time;
            >>
            >> 'Was being prepared', 'were brought up'. The
            >> narrational Pali present
            >> is better rendered by past time.
            >>
            >> 'Gotama completely agrees with us'. There's no 'we
            >> say'.
            >>
            >> bhante - venerable sir. Why 'Lord'?
            >>
            >> 3.
            >> 'and lapses into everything it wishes';
            >>
            >> sududdasa.m - very difficult to see;
            >>
            >> patiruupa - example;
            >> kilissati - defiles himself;
            >>
            >> Let one firstly set an example himself;
            >> Then he may instruct others, thus the wise one won't
            >> defile himself.
            >>
            >> Section 2
            >> 1.
            >> 'in the Peaked Roof pavilion';
            >>
            >> Mahaavana - Great Forest;
            >>
            >> 'point out the visible fruit of generosity'
            >>
            >> daayaka - donor;
            >>
            >> bhajati - 'serves' (synonym of 'sevati')(see 'bhaj'
            >> in Sanskrit
            >> dictionary);
            >>
            >> daayaka.m daanapati.m santo sappurisaa bhajanti -
            >> generous lay donor
            >> is well served by virtuous people;
            >>
            >> ama'nkubhuuto - without cofusion;
            >>
            >> 2.
            >> pavatti - perpetration;
            >>
            >> ayoniso - superficial, shallow (attention);
            >> yoniso - acute, shrewd, thorough (attention);
            >>
            >> 3.
            >> "If a monk is of such character,..."
            >>
            >> kalyaa.namitto - virtuous friend;
            >>
            >> 4.
            >> ... who is reborn slower and who faster - one who
            >> after death is reborn in
            >> the Brahma world, or one who after death is reborn
            >> in Kashmir?
            >>
            >> With the same (speed), great king.
            >>
            >> cintita is a past participle, therefore:
            >>
            >> I have thought, venerable sir.
            >>
            >> About which (place) you thought slower, great king,
            >> and about which
            >> faster?
            >>
            >> With the same (speed), great king.
            >>
            >> Just so, great king, one who after death is reborn
            >> in the
            >> Brahma world, and one who after death is reborn in
            >> Kashmir,
            >> do it with the same speed (in the same amount of
            >> time).
            >>
            >> Give me one more analogy.
            >>
            >> What do you think, great king, if two birds fly in
            >> the sky and one
            >> sits higher on a tree, and the other lower on a
            >> tree, if they land (on
            >> a tree) simultaneously, the shadow of which one
            >> would land on the ground
            >> first, and which one later?
            >>
            >> Lesson 9
            >> 1.
            >> ...in the town of Bhoga near the cairn named Ananda.
            >>
            >> bhadante - venerable sir;
            >>
            >> mahaapadesa - great argument;
            >>
            >> eva.m vadeyya - may say thus;
            >>
            >> otaariyamaana - being collated (according to
            >> Margaret Cone
            >> dictionary);
            >>
            >> Without rejoicing or rejection, thoroughly studying
            >> these sentences
            >> and syllables, they should collate them to the
            >> discourses, and compare
            >> them with the rules of discipline.
            >>
            >> 3.
            >> chanda.m - desire;
            >>
            >> bhadra - good fortune;
            >>
            >> But when good fortune ripens, the good-doer sees
            >> good fortune.
            >>
            >> Just as poison does not enter when there is no
            >> wound,
            >> so there is no evil for one who does not commit it.
            >>
            >> Those with good fortune go to heaven, those without
            >> taints get to
            >> highest calm.
            >>
            >> Section 2
            >> 1.
            >> bhante - venerable sir;
            >>
            >> ...conquering both worlds, he conducts himself. Thus
            >> he undertakes
            >> well this world and the next.
            >>
            >> 2.
            >> "What if I will preach the Doctrine."
            >>
            >> 3.
            >> Who will conquer this earth,
            >> And this world of yama, together with its gods?
            >> Who will pick out the well-proclaimed path of the
            >> truth
            >> Just as a skillful person picks out the flower?
            >>
            >> In second verse there's no question.
            >>
            >> papupphaka.m - blooming flower
            >> (see pra-pu.spita in Monier-Williams dictionary);
            >>
            >> Having realized that this body is like foam,
            >> Understanding its illusory nature,
            >> And cutting the blooming flowers of Mara,
            >> One may go unseen past the king of death.
            >>
            >> maana - conceit;
            >>
            >> That fool who considers himself fool,
            >> Is in fact wise because of this;
            >> Whereas that fool who conceits he is wise,
            >> He is indeed called a fool.
            >>
            >> Hopefully these suggestions will help.
            >>
            >> Metta,
            >> Dimitry
            >>
            >>
            >>


            JK> __________________________________________________
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          • paulocuana
            Dear Dimitry, I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary, and the first volume of A Pali Dictionary by Ms. Margaret Cone is very
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 29, 2002
              Dear Dimitry,

              I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary,
              and the first volume of "A Pali Dictionary" by Ms. Margaret Cone is
              very satisfying. The problem with the PED is its dogged commitment
              to etymology. While the history of words has its place among the more
              academic linguists, surely most of us amateurs read the texts for
              their meaning. Ms. Cone's dictionary is much welcomed as it focuses
              on meaning and usage instead of history.
              As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
              I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
              this is the same thing you are referring to.

              Best Wishes,
              Paul O Cuana


              --- In Pali@y..., "äÍÉÔÒÉÊ áÌÅËÓÅÅ×ÉÞ é×ÁÈÎÅÎËÏ (Dimitry A.
              Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@i...> wrote:

              > Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent
              is a
              > common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
              > himself.
              >
              > When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such
              resources
              > as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we
              should
              > use such resources wisely in difficult cases.
            • Robert Didham
              Paul I am sorry I cannot agree with your negative views on etymology. One of the ways (only one, but still an important one) in which we can work out the
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 30, 2002
                Paul

                I am sorry I cannot agree with your negative views on etymology. One of the
                ways (only one, but still an important one) in which we can work out the
                meaning of a word is via its etymology. Semantic fields of all words change
                with context and over time and it is this problem which leads not just to
                misunderstandings but also to the long debates on exact meanings of passages
                (often with important doctrinal consequences). To ignore this problem puts
                us in the position of "knowing" ahead of time the meaning we want to get out
                of the text but the words and the grammar don't support it so we decide the
                words and the grammar are irrelevant.

                Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the
                lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton. It is vital that
                we remember that any doctionary builds on all previous dictionaries, they
                each have (or should have) a clear understanding of their purpose and role
                which may or may not meet the purpose and roles users see for it, and each
                dictionary is merely one person's or group of people's views of the meaning
                and usage of the item at the time.

                However, at least you don't confuse etymology and meaning - there has been a
                discussion elsewhere on the etymology of "karuna" and none of the replies
                have more than scouted the edge of the question and most have concentrated
                on glosses of the word in the commentaries - in other words, on the meanings
                of the word in the opinion of various commentators rather than on its
                etymology.

                I am not sure what you mean by an "academic linguist" as opposed to an
                "amateur" - surely these are not merely not mutually exclusive but should
                be, in our field, handmaidens to each other? We cannot get at the texts
                without a lot of linguistics since there is so much material that is
                untranslated into modern languages we can read and often we have as yet no
                satisfactory dictionaries to help us out (as happens with some of the
                Prakrit material). Similarly, if we were not amateurs we wouldn't be in the
                field in the first place.

                I totally agree that the work of Margaret Cone on the Pali Dictionary is
                absolutely essential and thus far excellent - but this is not to denigrate
                the old PTS dictionary. For one thing, that one is at least complete. You
                still the PTS PED alongside as well as the CPD (as far as that has got so
                far)and when they fail there is always the Burmese Pali dictionary to fall
                back on. The reason I suggest this is that any dictionary (even one that
                concentrates on meanings)has a very limited scope and the citations can only
                cover the most frequent examples - you can be sure that the text you get
                stuck on will have a meaning not attested in the dictionaries at hand and
                you may even find that the commentaries, if they exist, disagree. In some
                cases it is difficult to be sure of the actual meaning (rhino horns and
                geese spring to mind here)

                Incidentally one criticism I have of MW is that it sometimes has obscure
                usages as examples and misses a common one - I wonder whether the pundit
                advisors he used sometimes had a small smile at his expense)


                Keep up the good work

                Robert Didham


                >From: "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...>
                >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [Pali] Re: Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9
                >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:40:02 -0000
                >
                >Dear Dimitry,
                >
                >I was very happy to hear that the PTS was working on a new dictionary,
                >and the first volume of "A Pali Dictionary" by Ms. Margaret Cone is
                >very satisfying. The problem with the PED is its dogged commitment
                >to etymology. While the history of words has its place among the more
                >academic linguists, surely most of us amateurs read the texts for
                >their meaning. Ms. Cone's dictionary is much welcomed as it focuses
                >on meaning and usage instead of history.
                >As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
                >I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
                >this is the same thing you are referring to.
                >
                >Best Wishes,
                >Paul O Cuana
                >
                >
                >--- In Pali@y..., "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                >Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@i...> wrote:
                >
                > > Reconstructing rare Pali word on the basis of Sanskrit equivalent
                >is a
                > > common practice widely used by "paliglots", including Mr Rhys Davids
                > > himself.
                > >
                > > When PED was compiled in the beginning of 20th century, such
                >resources
                > > as Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary didn't exist yet. So we
                >should
                > > use such resources wisely in difficult cases.
                >
                >
                >


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              • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                Dear Paul, Ms. Cone s dictionary is a step forward, but still has a lot to improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations without explanation - nowadays
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 30, 2002
                  Dear Paul,

                  Ms. Cone's dictionary is a step forward, but still has a lot to
                  improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations without
                  explanation - nowadays anyone can find any number of relevant
                  citations on computer. PED is more friendly in this regard. It also
                  has many pioneering discoveries of the meanings, be they right or
                  wrong. Ms. Cone's dictionary often simply preserves them and does not
                  reflect active work of thought. It gives impression that
                  philological Pali thought has somewhat stagnated since 1925.

                  p> As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition published in 1851?
                  p> I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of 1899 but I'm not sure
                  p> this is the same thing you are referring to.

                  I don't know its exact publication date. The fact is that
                  Monier-Williams dictionary is not included in the list of consulted
                  sources of PED.

                  Etymology represents an important constituent of linguistic studies -
                  alongside with actual context, commentarial glosses, definitions,
                  equivalents in other languages. We should use all these tools for
                  better understanding.

                  Best Wishes,
                  Dimitry
                • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                  Dear Robert, RD Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the RD lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
                    Dear Robert,

                    RD> Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW was the
                    RD> lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.

                    Can you please tell more about Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary by
                    F. Edgerton? How relevant it is to Pali studies?

                    Kind regards,

                    Dimitry Ivakhnenko
                  • Robert Didham
                    Dear Dimitry The point I was making was partly that the search for meanings and etymologies of Pali and Prakrit texts is likely to prove less fruitful if one
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
                      Dear Dimitry

                      The point I was making was partly that the search for meanings and
                      etymologies of Pali and Prakrit texts is likely to prove less fruitful if
                      one looks in classical Sanskrit as attested in MW than it is to be if one
                      looks at forms reflected BHS. For this reason if the compilers of the PED
                      were to have needed recourse to a Sanskrit dictionary they would have found
                      Edgerton a lot more useful if only because the examples were drawn almost
                      exclusively from Buddhist materials.

                      They probably would have used used Boehtlingk of course rather than MW but
                      their stated sources do not indicate this (neither are mentioned, though
                      they do mention both Brugmann and Grassmann - and their foreword is well
                      worth a read for considerable insight into their perspective).

                      Edgerton's dictionary was not published until around 1950 (there are current
                      editions published by Motilal Banarsidass) but as with any dictionary, these
                      don't get written overnight anymore than one might find a publisher
                      overnight!!

                      I am not sure if I have adequately answered your question, Dimitry, but
                      please let me know if I have totally missed the target.

                      Cheers

                      Robert

                      >From: "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko)"
                      ><koleso@...>
                      >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Robert Didham <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: Re[2]: [Pali] Re: Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapters 8-9
                      >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:00:53 +0200
                      >
                      >Dear Robert,
                      >
                      >RD> Of more importance to context than the date of the publication of MW
                      >was the
                      >RD> lack of a BHS dictionary which had to wait until Edgerton.
                      >
                      >Can you please tell more about Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary by
                      >F. Edgerton? How relevant it is to Pali studies?
                      >
                      >Kind regards,
                      >
                      >Dimitry Ivakhnenko
                      >
                      >


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                    • Paul O Cuana
                      Dear Dimitry, I don t wish to be contentious but it seems important that one should know the date of publication of Monier-Williams before stating that it
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
                        Dear Dimitry,

                        I don't wish to be contentious but it seems important
                        that one should know the date of publication of
                        Monier-Williams before stating that it didn't exist at
                        the time the PED was compiled. Not knowing anything
                        about Sanskrit, I was genuinely confused by the
                        comment
                        to the point that I thought perhaps there were two
                        such
                        people named M-W and I'm still not convinced of this.
                        This is to say nothing of the question that the
                        existence of M-W leaves open, i.e. why did Rys-Davids
                        and Stede not choose M-W.

                        As to the two PTS dictionaries, the old focuses on
                        etymology and the new on meaning and usage. Both are
                        fine works and I didn't mean to denigrate the old.
                        I think you'll find that Ms. Cone uses quotations to
                        illustrate meaning and mere citations to show the
                        range
                        of texts, usually canonical, where a word is found.

                        I did think your criticism of Ms. Cone was rather
                        harsh
                        and it recalled a humourous poem that Dorothy Parker
                        wrote. Now remember this is all in good fun. I
                        believe Mrs. Parker wrote the poem in response to a
                        friend of hers who had criticized the work of Charles
                        Dickens.

                        Those who call him spurious and shoddy
                        Shall do so over my lifeless body,
                        I do invite such birds
                        To step outside and say those words.

                        Thank you, Dimitry, for all that you contribute.
                        With sincere best wishes,
                        Paul

                        --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                        Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
                        > Dear Paul,
                        >
                        > Ms. Cone's dictionary is a step forward, but still
                        > has a lot to
                        > improve. What for are those numerous Pali citations
                        > without
                        > explanation - nowadays anyone can find any number of
                        > relevant
                        > citations on computer. PED is more friendly in this
                        > regard. It also
                        > has many pioneering discoveries of the meanings, be
                        > they right or
                        > wrong. Ms. Cone's dictionary often simply preserves
                        > them and does not
                        > reflect active work of thought. It gives impression
                        > that
                        > philological Pali thought has somewhat stagnated
                        > since 1925.
                        >
                        > p> As to Monier-Williams, wasn't the first edition
                        > published in 1851?
                        > p> I see references to an Oxford reprint edition of
                        > 1899 but I'm not sure
                        > p> this is the same thing you are referring to.
                        >
                        > I don't know its exact publication date. The fact is
                        > that
                        > Monier-Williams dictionary is not included in the
                        > list of consulted
                        > sources of PED.
                        >
                        > Etymology represents an important constituent of
                        > linguistic studies -
                        > alongside with actual context, commentarial glosses,
                        > definitions,
                        > equivalents in other languages. We should use all
                        > these tools for
                        > better understanding.
                        >
                        > Best Wishes,
                        > Dimitry
                        >
                        >
                        >


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