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Re: [Pali] AN2.1.9 Cariya Sutta (1/2)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Yong Peng, I will try the last sentence. Op 1-mrt-2009, om 14:45 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven: AN2.1.9 Cariyasutta 9. Dveme , bhikkhave,
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 3, 2009
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      Dear Yong Peng,
      I will try the last sentence.
      Op 1-mrt-2009, om 14:45 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:
      AN2.1.9 Cariyasutta

      9. "Dveme , bhikkhave, dhammaa sukkaa loka.m paalenti. Katame dve?
      Hirii ca ottappa~nca. Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m na
      paaleyyu.m, nayidha pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa
      maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa.
      Sambheda.m loko agamissa, yathaa aje.lakaa kukku.tasuukaraa
      so.nasi`ngaalaa. Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkhave, ime dve sukkaa dhammaa
      loka.m paalenti tasmaa pa~n~naayati maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa
      maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa"ti.
      Navama.m.
      -------------
      N: Y.P.: pa~n~naayetha (optative attanopada 3rd person singular) may
      (it)
      be known, clear.
      -------

      N: As you say, optative of reflexive or middle conjugation, Warder Ch
      28. It can be translated as : would be known.
      na paaleyyu.m: optative of paaleti, to protect. If they would not
      protect.

      sambheda: confusion.

      agamissa: future of agacchati: will come.

      aja: goat.

      e.laka: wild goat.

      kukkuta: cock

      so.na: dog

      Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m na paaleyyu.m,
      these/indeed/monks/two bright dhammas/ the world/not protect
      O monks, if these two bright qualities would not protect the world

      nayidha pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa
      not now/ would be seen /mother/mother's sister/or
      then there would not be known a mother, a mother's sister or

      maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa.
      uncle's spouse/or teacher's spouse/ or spouses of honourable men
      uncle's spouse, teacher's spouse or spouses of honourable men.

      Sambheda.m loko agamissa, yathaa aje.lakaa kukku.tasuukaraa
      to confusion/world/will come/ such as goat, sheep, /fowls, swine/
      so.nasi`ngaalaa.
      /dogs, jackals./
      The world will come to confusion, such as (promiscuity between) goat
      and sheep, fowls and swine, dogs and jackals.

      /Yasmaa ca kho/, bhikkhave, /
      O monks, since indeed /

      /ime dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m paalenti tasmaa pa~n~naayati maataati
      vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa
      garuuna.m daaraati vaa"ti./

      these two bright qualities protect the world, therefore are known a
      mother, a mother's sister or uncle's spouse, teacher's spouse or
      spouses of honourable men.

      Navama.m.
      The Ninth.
      ------------
      N: Remark: This is an example of very coarse shamelessness and fear
      of blame. We read that the monk sees danger in the slightest fault,
      and the Vinaya helps the monk to see this danger.
      Shame and fear of blame can become more refined as there is more
      understanding of the cittas that motivate action, speech and thought.
      In that way one can be aware even of a slight thought of desire or
      aversion. There can be more understanding of what akusala citta is
      and what kusala citta.
      ------------
      Nina.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina and friends, thank you. Following recent discussions on Ka.nha Sutta, let me rework Cariya Sutta as follows: Cariyasutta conduct / sutta On Conduct *
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 21, 2009
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        Dear Nina and friends,

        thank you. Following recent discussions on Ka.nha Sutta, let me rework Cariya Sutta as follows:

        Cariyasutta
        conduct / sutta
        On Conduct

        * cariya (n) conduct, behaviour.

        "Dveme , bhikkhave, dhammaa sukkaa loka.m paalenti.
        these two / monks / things / bright / world / protect
        "O monks, these two qualities, (which are) bright, protect the world.

        * dveme = dve ime: these two.
        - dve (num) two.
        - aya.m (pron) this.
        * bhikkhu (m) monk.
        * dhamma (m) thing.
        * sukka (adj) bright, pure, good.
        * loka (m) world.
        * paaleti (v) protects, guards.

        Katame dve?
        which / two
        Which two?

        * katama (pron) which.

        Hirii ca ottappa~nca.
        shame of wrong-doing / and / fear of wrong-doing and
        Shame of wrong-doing and fear of wrong-doing.

        * hirii (f) shame of wrong-doing, ethical integrity.
        * ca (conj) and.
        * ottappa (n) fear of wrong-doing, moral prudence.

        Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m na paaleyyu.m, nayidha pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa.
        these / indeed / monks / two / bright / things / world / not / (if) would guard / not then / may be clear / mother / or / mother's sister / or / uncle's spouse / or / teacher's spouse / or / of honourable men / spouses / or
        O monks, if these two bright qualities would not guard the world, then (the notion of) "mother" or "mother's sister" or "uncle's spouse" or "teacher's spouse" or "spouses of honourable men" may not be clear.

        * kho (indec) indeed.
        * na (neg) not.
        * nayidha = na + y + idha (sandhi).
        - idha (indec) then.
        * paaleti (v) protects, guards.
        * pa~n~naayati (passive of pajaanaati) is known, is clear.
        - pa~n~naayetha (optative attanopada 3rd person singular) may be known, clear.
        * maataa (f) mother.
        * vaa (conj) or.
        * maatucchaa (f) mother's sister, maternal aunt.
        * maatulaanii (f) mother's brother's wife.
        * aacariyabhariyaa (f) teacher's wife.
        - aacariya (m) teacher.
        - bhariyaa (f) wife.
        * garu (m) honourable person.
        * daaraa (f) wife.

        Thanks also to Nina for the second part of the sutta, which I shall reorganise and post to the group next week.


        metta,
        Yong Peng.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Yong Peng, ... N: pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa. Another option: then
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 22, 2009
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          Dear Yong Peng,
          Op 21-mrt-2009, om 14:12 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

          > Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m na paaleyyu.m,
          > nayidha pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti
          > vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa.
          > these / indeed / monks / two / bright / things / world / not / (if)
          > would guard / not then / may be clear / mother / or / mother's
          > sister / or / uncle's spouse / or / teacher's spouse / or / of
          > honourable men / spouses / or
          > O monks, if these two bright qualities would not guard the world,
          > then (the notion of) "mother" or "mother's sister" or "uncle's
          > spouse" or "teacher's spouse" or "spouses of honourable men" may
          > not be clear.
          ---------
          N: pa~n~naayetha maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti vaa
          aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa.
          Another option: then "mother" etc. would not be regarded as such.

          There is the suffix 'ti' I like to consider. The Co. states that
          mother etc. are not respected. The shameless person knows it is his
          mother but he has no respect and does not regard her as such.
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Nina and friends, Sambheda.m loko agamissa, yathaa aje.lakaa kukku.tasuukaraa so.nasi`ngaalaa. to confusion / world / if...had gone / like / goats and
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 28, 2009
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            Dear Nina and friends,

            Sambheda.m loko agamissa, yathaa aje.lakaa kukku.tasuukaraa so.nasi`ngaalaa.
            to confusion / world / if...had gone / like / goats and sheep / roosters and pigs / dogs and jackals
            If the world had gone to confusion, (it will be) like goats and sheep, roosters and pigs, and dogs and jackals.

            * sambheda (m) mixing up, confusion.
            * gacchati (v) goes.
            - agamissa (kaalaatipatti 3rd person singular) if (he) had gone.
            * yathaa (adv) like.
            * aje.lakaa (m) goats and sheep.
            - aja (m) goat.
            - e.laka (m) ram, wild goat.
            * kukku.tasuukaraa (m) roosters and pigs.
            - kukku.ta (m) cock, rooster.
            - suukara (m) hog, pig.
            * so.nasi`ngaalaa (m) dogs and jackals.
            - so.na (m) dog.
            - si`ngaala (m) jackal.

            Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkhave, ime dve sukkaa dhammaa loka.m paalenti tasmaa pa~n~naayati maataati vaa maatucchaati vaa maatulaaniiti vaa aacariyabhariyaati vaa garuuna.m daaraati vaa"ti.
            because / and / indeed / monks / these / two / bright / qualities / world / protect / therefore / is known / mother / or / mother's sister / or / uncle's spouse / or / teacher's spouse / or / of honourable men / spouses / or
            Indeed, O monks, and because these two bright qualities protect the world, therefore, "mother" or "mother's sister" or "uncle's spouse" or "teacher's spouse" or "spouses of honourable men" is known.

            * yasmaa (indec) because.
            * tasmaa (indec) therefore.

            Navama.m.
            ninth
            The ninth.


            metta,
            Yong Peng.
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