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Re: [Pali] AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Yong Peng, Thank you very much. What about it if we translate ka.nhaa literally as dark? Then it is in contrast to sukka in the next sutta I would
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 1, 2009
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      Dear Yong Peng,
      Thank you very much.
      What about it if we translate ka.nhaa literally as dark? Then it is
      in contrast to sukka in the next sutta I would translate as bright.
      The Co says that the citta accompanied by akusala cetasikas, such as
      shamelessness and recklessness is not luminous, pabhassara, whereas
      the citta that is accompanied by kusala cetasikas is luminous,
      pabhassara.
      Each akusala citta is accompanied by ahirika and anottappa. These do
      not see the danger of akusala and its consequences.
      Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa.
      Nina.

      Op 1-mrt-2009, om 11:52 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

      > AN2.1.7 Ka.nhasutta
      >
      > "Dveme, bhikkhave, dhammaa ka.nhaa. Katame dve? Ahirika~nca
      > anottappa~nca. Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve dhammaa ka.nhaa"ti. Sattama.m.
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Ka.nhasutta
      > evil / sutta
      > On Evil
      >
      > "Dveme, bhikkhave, dhammaa ka.nhaa.
      > these two / monks / things / evil
      > "O monks, these two things (are) evil.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kumara Bhikkhu
      ... I prefer a literal translation for ka.nhaa as dark , since dark does have a meaning of absence of moral or spiritual values . ... How about
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 3, 2009
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        Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 06:52 PM 01-03-09:
        >"Dveme, bhikkhave, dhammaa ka.nhaa.
        >these two / monks / things / evil
        >"O monks, these two things (are) evil.

        I prefer a literal translation for ka.nhaa as "dark", since "dark" does have a meaning of "absence of moral or spiritual values".


        >Ahirika~nca anottappa~nca.
        >unscrupulousness and / recklessness and
        >Unscrupulousness and recklessness.

        How about "shamelessness" for "ahirika"? (Yes, I like to translate as close as possible to the word in all aspects: meaning, etymology and if possible even imagery. I'm a literature guy, you see?) I like "recklessness" though.


        kb
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina, thanks for your inputs. Nina, thanks for looking up the commentary and provide the English translation. I agree to have ka.nhaa as
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 6, 2009
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          Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,

          thanks for your inputs.

          Nina, thanks for looking up the commentary and provide the English translation. I agree to have ka.nhaa as dark, and sukka as bright for the three suttas we are currently working on.

          Bhante, for ahirika and anottappa, I had in Cariyasutta translated them as,

          hirika - sense of shame
          ottappa - remorse for wrong-doing

          Maybe Nina and other members like to comment on this too. I have got this understanding from a Chinese term which I believe is related to both words (simplified Chinese: 惭愧).

          see: http://baike.baidu.com/view/817590.html

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

          What about it if we translate ka.nhaa literally as dark? Then it is in contrast to sukka in the next sutta I would translate as bright. The Co says that the citta accompanied by akusala cetasikas, such as shamelessness and recklessness is not luminous, pabhassara, whereas the citta that is accompanied by kusala cetasikas is luminous, pabhassara. Each akusala citta is accompanied by ahirika and anottappa. These do not see the danger of akusala and its consequences. Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa.

          > "Dveme, bhikkhave, dhammaa ka.nhaa.
          > these two / monks / things / evil
          > "O monks, these two things (are) evil.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, ... N: The akusala cetasika (unwholesome quality) of kukkucca is usually translated as remorse: remorse about the bad deeds one did and the
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 7, 2009
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            Dear Yong Peng,
            Op 6-mrt-2009, om 13:01 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

            > hirika - sense of shame
            > ottappa - remorse for wrong-doing
            >
            > Maybe Nina and other members like to comment on this too. I have
            > got this understanding from a Chinese term
            ------
            N: The akusala cetasika (unwholesome quality) of kukkucca is usually
            translated as remorse: remorse about the bad deeds one did and the
            good deeds one omitted. This is not remorse in the positive sense,
            but rather aversion.
            Ottappa is also translated as fear of blame, fear of the consequences
            of ill deeds, but also this translation is not ideal.
            I think we have to remember that hiri and ottappa arise with each
            kind of kusala: when engaged with daana, with siila, with bhaavanaa.
            Thus, there is no trace of aversion or any negative element here. One
            sees the negative effects of evil, both for oneself and others. One
            sees the benefit of kusala. These two cetasikas support each kusala
            citta, but at the same time there are many other good qualities as
            well, such as sati, mindfulness, saddhaa, confidence in kusala,
            alobha, adosa etc.
            Nina.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina, thank you. You have given a better description: seeing the negative effects (harms) of akusala, and (at the same time) seeing the benefits (positive
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 7, 2009
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              Dear Nina,

              thank you. You have given a better description: seeing the negative effects (harms) of akusala, and (at the same time) seeing the benefits (positive effects) of kusala.

              The PED has under its entry for ottappa: DhsA 124, 126, I believe DhsA stands for Dhammasangani commentary, the numbers 124 and 126 denote page numbers in the PTS edition, which I do not have. It would be good if there is a table showing PTS page numbers for their publications and its corresponding "global" location in any equivalent texts, be it CSCD, SLTP or others.

              I also refer to PTS, and it has

              ahirika~nca anottappa~nca: shamelessness and recklessness
              hirika~nca ottappa~nca: sense of shame and fear of blame

              May I suggest ottappa: discernment for wrong-doing?

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

              > hirika - sense of shame
              > ottappa - remorse for wrong-doing

              Ottappa is also translated as fear of blame, fear of the consequences of ill deeds, but also this translation is not ideal. I think we have to remember that hiri and ottappa arise with each kind of kusala: when engaged with daana, with siila, with bhaavanaa. Thus, there is no trace of aversion or any negative element here. One sees the negative effects of evil, both for oneself and others. One sees the benefit of kusala. These two cetasikas support each kusala citta, but at the same time there are many other good qualities as well, such as sati, mindfulness, saddhaa, confidence in kusala, alobha, adosa etc.
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Nina and friends, I further realise that hiri = sense of shame, so hirika = having sense of shame? For ottappa, discernment may already been heavily
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 7, 2009
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                Dear Nina and friends,

                I further realise that hiri = sense of shame, so hirika = having sense of shame?

                For ottappa, 'discernment' may already been heavily used in other important contexts. If so, probably ottappa can be interpreted as mindful of blame, or mindful of wrong-doing?

                What do you think? Thank you.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                I also refer to PTS, and it has

                ahirika~nca anottappa~nca: shamelessness and recklessness
                hirika~nca ottappa~nca: sense of shame and fear of blame

                May I suggest ottappa: discernment for wrong-doing?

                > > hirika - sense of shame
                > > ottappa - remorse for wrong-doing

                > Ottappa is also translated as fear of blame, fear of the consequences of ill deeds, but also this translation is not ideal. I think we have to remember that hiri and ottappa arise with each kind of kusala: when engaged with daana, with siila, with bhaavanaa. Thus, there is no trace of aversion or any negative element here. One sees the negative effects of evil, both for oneself and others. One sees the benefit of kusala. These two cetasikas support each kusala citta, but at the same time there are many other good qualities as well, such as sati, mindfulness, saddhaa, confidence in kusala, alobha, adosa etc.
              • Kumara Bhikkhu
                ... From a spiritual practice point of view, this (remorse for wrong-doing) would be rather counterproductive. According to WordNet, remorse means a feeling of
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 8, 2009
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                  Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 20:01 06/03/2009:
                  >ottappa - remorse for wrong-doing

                  From a spiritual practice point of view, this (remorse for wrong-doing) would be rather counterproductive. According to WordNet, remorse means a feeling of deep regret (usually for some misdeed). It can also carry the meaning of self-reproach. Quite a bit of dosa there, don't you think? Furthermore, remorse is about the past, rather than a thought that occurred in the relative present.

                  Often ottappa is translated as "moral fear/dread". For me, it still suggests a defiled state. How about "moral prudence", as oppose to recklessness? (Then anottappa can be translated as "moral imprudence".) With this translation, the state of mind would be based on a sense of care and wisdom, rather than fear or dread.

                  I'm not sure though if this would fit in so well with the cetasika theory of the Pali Abhidhamma, or that other Aabhidharmikas.


                  >Maybe Nina and other members like to comment on this too. I have got this understanding from a Chinese term which I believe is related to both words (simplified Chinese: 惭愧).

                  Yes, that's the traditional Chinese translation of the pair. Can't be sure how these words are used during the time of the translators, or how they themselves intended them to mean. In the modern day, the phrase tend to mean "feeling ashamed", which can cover a sense of shame, guilt, embarrassment and remorse.

                  Anyhow, being a Chinese having being exposed to the traditional Chinese perception of virtue, I can see they might regard this as "good". It's no wonder then many traditional Chinese tend to have a guilt complex, as traditional Christians do in the West. "O Suffering World!" (Heard of that Buddhist hymn?)

                  Again, from the spiritual practice point of view, I would stay away from this translation.

                  kb
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Yong Peng, ... N: PTS states that hirika is only used as ahirika, having no shame. Thus, we find hiri for shame. ... N: When we say mindful, we think of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 9, 2009
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                    Dear Yong Peng,
                    Op 8-mrt-2009, om 4:26 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                    > I further realise that hiri = sense of shame, so hirika = having
                    > sense of shame?
                    ------
                    N: PTS states that hirika is only used as ahirika, having no shame.
                    Thus, we find hiri for shame.
                    --------
                    >
                    > For ottappa, 'discernment' may already been heavily used in other
                    > important contexts. If so, probably ottappa can be interpreted as
                    > mindful of blame, or mindful of wrong-doing?
                    ------
                    N: When we say mindful, we think of sati that is non-forgetful of
                    kusala. It accompanies each kusala citta, but let us find another
                    translation for ottappa.
                    Fear of the consequences of akusala.
                    I agree with Ven. Kumara's observations about fear. His suggestion of
                    moral prudence", as opposed to recklessness and anottappa as moral
                    imprudence seems fine to me.

                    As to shamelessness, the Co has a good simile for ahirika: a pig does
                    not abhor filth, it likes to eat it.
                    As to anottappa: a moth flies into the flame. The flame seems
                    attractive, but this is to its detriment.
                    --------
                    NIna.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina, thanks again. Yes, moral prudence sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too. Sense of
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 9, 2009
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                      Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,

                      thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.

                      "Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.


                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:

                      Often ottappa is translated as "moral fear/dread". For me, it still suggests a defiled state. How about "moral prudence", as oppose to recklessness? (Then anottappa can be translated as "moral imprudence".) With this translation, the state of mind would be based on a sense of care and wisdom, rather than fear or dread.
                    • grasje
                      Dear Yong Peng, Emotions that keep one from doing things causing regret might be dignity or self-respect. There might be better equivalents, not having the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 9, 2009
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                        Dear Yong Peng,

                        Emotions that keep one from doing things causing regret might be dignity or self-respect. There might be better equivalents, not having the affinity with pride.

                        Is decency another possibility for ottappa? On one hand, it smells like small-hearted suburbia, but on the othere hand immediately makes clear an amount of care for oneself and one's surroundings.

                        Kind regards,

                        Ria Glas
                      • flrobert2000
                        Dear all, If this might help, ahirika/hirika and anottappa/ottappa in reference to the akusala/kusala cetasika as described in the Abhidhamma are translated as
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 10, 2009
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                          Dear all,

                          If this might help, ahirika/hirika and anottappa/ottappa in reference to the akusala/kusala cetasika as described in the Abhidhamma are translated as follow by some Burmese authors:

                          moral conscience / lack of moral conscience
                          moral resolution / lack of moral resolution

                          Regards,

                          Florent
                        • Kumâra Bhikkhu
                          ... Great. I cc d my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back: thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating ottappa as righteousness .... i forgot
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 12, 2009
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                            Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 08:03 PM 09-03-09:
                            >Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
                            >
                            >thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.

                            Great.

                            I cc'd my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back:
                            thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating 'ottappa'
                            as 'righteousness' .... i forgot what's the chinese word for this ....

                            For that, WordNet provides the meaning "adhering to moral principles". It could also mean "morally upright, just". What do you think?

                            I still think "moral prudence" fit better though.


                            >"Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.

                            This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).

                            Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.

                            Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.

                            So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,

                            Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.

                            kb
                          • James Whelan
                            Although in the context of Buddhist teaching neither etymology nor Sanskrit equivalents are always a sure guide to meaning, they do often help. It may be
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 13, 2009
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                              Although in the context of Buddhist teaching neither etymology nor Sanskrit equivalents are always a sure guide to meaning, they do often help. It may be worth bearing in mind in the present discussion that the Pali ottappa is congnate with Sanskrit apa-trap. The root trap essentially means 'shame', and the prefix apa essentially means 'away'. Thus, the underlying meaning of Skt apatrapati (> Pali ottapati) is 'to be shamed away', i.e. to recoil from doing something on account of the sense of shame one will feel by doing it. So I have no quarrel with 'moral prudence', but it is useful to view it as the particular kind of prudence associated with a sense of shame at doing wrong.

                              James

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Kumâra Bhikkhu
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:02 AM
                              Subject: Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)}


                              Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 08:03 PM 09-03-09:
                              >Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
                              >
                              >thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.

                              Great.

                              I cc'd my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back:
                              thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating 'ottappa'
                              as 'righteousness' .... i forgot what's the chinese word for this ....

                              For that, WordNet provides the meaning "adhering to moral principles". It could also mean "morally upright, just". What do you think?

                              I still think "moral prudence" fit better though.

                              >"Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.

                              This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).

                              Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.

                              Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.

                              So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,

                              Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.

                              kb




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • grasje
                              Dear Kumara Bhikkhu Last week there was a program on the BBC, titled: what s the problem with nudity. One of the items presented was a genetic study about
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                Dear Kumara Bhikkhu

                                Last week there was a program on the BBC, titled: what's the problem with nudity. One of the items presented was a genetic study about louse: head louse, crabs and clothes louse. Headlouse split off from the apelouse about 6 million years ago. Crab louse split off from the apelouse about 2,5 million years ago, (we must have lost our fur by then, creating two different biotopes on our body), clothes louse split from the head louse 250.000 years ago. (Homo Sapiens came into being about 180.000 year ago). The BBC programme developed the following theory for the development of clothes (and clothes louse):

                                When the brainvolume of people increased, nature solved the problem of birth by letting the babies be born very early, when they are still very helpless (compard to great apes). Fathers helped in caring for the babies. This induced monogamous relations and restricted "fooling around". Clothes helped to cover the most visible sexual parts of the body. The shame people feel when they take off their clothes helps to expres: yes, I know what I do is wrong, please dont beat me". And even in societies where people go as naked as you describe, they still feel very embarrassed if they take away that last piece of covering.
                                So at least the program makers think complete nakednesss is naturally experienced as shameful all around the world and in any society.
                                In some circumstances where people agree implicitly that they will be naked but still won't have sex, like a sauna or a naturalist beach, we can quickly get over the shame. But initially it is there, and it seems to be built-in, and for good reasons: safely raising these helpless babies in monogamous families.

                                How genetics might help translating pali. Who said things depend on conditions?

                                Honour seems a very accurate translation to me

                                Kind regards,

                                Ria


                                > This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).
                                >
                                > Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.
                                >
                                > Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.
                                >
                                > So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,
                                >
                                > Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.
                                >
                                > kb
                                >
                              • Магубад Бурджан
                                Dear Kumara Bhikkhu, hiri: sense of honour - That is an interesting suggestion. I like it even if I can t judge is it relevant in this context. But something
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 13, 2009
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                                  Dear Kumara Bhikkhu,

                                  "hiri: sense of honour" - That is an interesting suggestion. I like it even if I can't judge is it relevant in this context. But something else just came across my mind: in Japanese "giri" is
                                  "duty, sense of duty, honour, decency, courtesy" (according an on-line dictionary, I don't know Japanese myself). Could it be from Pali origin? But maybe this is just a phonetic coincidence.

                                  With metta,
                                  Ardavarz


                                  --- On Thu, 3/12/09, Kumâra Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                                  From: Kumâra Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                  Subject: Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)}
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 1:02 PM












                                  Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 08:03 PM 09-03-09:

                                  >Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,

                                  >

                                  >thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.



                                  Great.



                                  I cc'd my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back:

                                  thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating 'ottappa'

                                  as 'righteousness' .... i forgot what's the chinese word for this .....



                                  For that, WordNet provides the meaning "adhering to moral principles". It could also mean "morally upright, just". What do you think?



                                  I still think "moral prudence" fit better though.



                                  >"Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.



                                  This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).



                                  Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.



                                  Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.



                                  So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,



                                  Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.



                                  kb































                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Ven Kumara, Ria, Florent and James, thanks for your interesting discussion. Firstly, I like to mention that we be mindful when making references to
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                    Dear Ven Kumara, Ria, Florent and James,

                                    thanks for your interesting discussion. Firstly, I like to mention that we be mindful when making references to science, lest that we are seen to promote some kind of pseudoscience. Buddhists, I believe, should never distort science to suit any particular religious belief.

                                    Secondly, I hope our discussion is not following someone's dream, but proper analysis of the text before us.

                                    I agree with James that we should consider the etymology, and with Florent that we consider other translation and interpretation, and with Nina who usually consult the commentary and also where available the Abhidhamma perspective. We also need to consider when choosing an English term, if that term has been used for another Pali word or meaning. The social implications during Buddha's times and ours. The historical context/settings of this discourse. The philosophical meaning as it fits into the greater scheme of things (of the Dhamma-vinaya). The anthropological evidence and assumptions to our interpretations and translations.

                                    I believe the discussion here is not about sexual attraction, family responsibility, or nudity. That does not mean these topics may not be discussed elsewhere in the suttas, but we should avoid drifting away from the core discussion. I believe we are all learning, but hopefully the more learned members can be more willing to provide assistance.

                                    I have a peep on Cariya Sutta, but hope Nina can comment further on the word hirii. We are only halfway through Cariya Sutta, but it seems to be discussing in particular "ethical integrity or responsibility" regarding sexual relationships. If so, hirii or "sense of shame" applies to a person refraining from a certain sexual relationship which is ethically irresponsible and leads to confusion.

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.


                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, James Whelan wrote:

                                    Although in the context of Buddhist teaching neither etymology nor Sanskrit equivalents are always a sure guide to meaning, they do often help. It may be worth bearing in mind in the present discussion that the Pali ottappa is congnate with Sanskrit apa-trap. The root trap essentially means 'shame', and the prefix apa essentially means 'away'. Thus, the underlying meaning of Skt apatrapati (> Pali ottapati) is 'to be shamed away', i.e. to recoil from doing something on account of the sense of shame one will feel by doing it. So I have no quarrel with 'moral prudence', but it is useful to view it as the particular kind of prudence associated with a sense of shame at doing wrong.

                                    >> "Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations,
                                    >> can we improve the English further?

                                    > This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).
                                    >
                                    > Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.
                                    >
                                    > Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.
                                    >
                                    > So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence.
                                  • gunnargallmo@yahoo.se
                                    http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto ... hiri: sense of honour - That is an interesting suggestion. I like it even if I
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                      http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
                                      http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto

                                      --- Den lör 2009-03-14 skrev Магубад Бурджан <ardavarz@...>:


                                      ""hiri: sense of honour" - That is an interesting suggestion. I like it even if I can't judge is it relevant in this context. But something else just came across my mind: in Japanese "giri" is
                                      "duty, sense of duty, honour, decency, courtesy" (according an on-line dictionary, I don't know Japanese myself). Could it be from Pali origin?"

                                      I doubt that very much. Those who know better may correct me, but I think Pali language and Theravada tradition have been completely unknown in Japan until relatively recently (while "honour" has played a very important role in Japanese culture much longer than that - perhaps with a somewhat different definition). They got Buddhism from China, so their tradition is based not on the Pali canon but ultimately on the Sanskrit one (ackording to PED, the Vedic equivalent of hiri is hrii), and they got it mainly through Chinese translations. (I think their common way to recite the sutras is reading the Chinese texts with the Japanese pronounciation of the individual ideograms, so neither Chinese nor Japanese could possibly understand anything...)

                                      Gunnar



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                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                      Dear Yong Peng, ... N: I had not thought about it in this way. It is more like shrinking back from the dirt of defilements. Thus, the opposite of the pig who
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                        Dear Yong Peng,
                                        Op 14-mrt-2009, om 13:14 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                        > I have a peep on Cariya Sutta, but hope Nina can comment further on
                                        > the word hirii. We are only halfway through Cariya Sutta, but it
                                        > seems to be discussing in particular "ethical integrity or
                                        > responsibility" regarding sexual relationships.
                                        ------
                                        N: I had not thought about it in this way. It is more like shrinking
                                        back from the dirt of defilements. Thus, the opposite of the pig who
                                        swallows in dirt, eats dirt.
                                        And then, there are many degrees of defilements, more gross and more
                                        subtle. Understanding can be developed of very subtle lobha we may
                                        not have known of before, or conceit we may not have noticed before.
                                        Like: 'I want to be a superior person', clinging to our own goodness.
                                        We learn to see through motives that seem very noble but which are
                                        directed towards gain for ourselves. We learn how often we deceive
                                        ourselves, mislead ourselves. It is understanding of the different
                                        cittas at the present moment that will teach us a lesson. Thus, hiri
                                        will develop. It arises with each and every kusala citta. When giving
                                        with generosity the citta is kusala and there is also hiri that
                                        shrinks back from avarice and selfish gain. When observing a precept
                                        like abstaining from slandering, there is also hiri that shrinks back
                                        from giving in to slandering.
                                        Nina.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Nina, thank you. I did some further but very limited research and found hiri is also been translated as modesty. From this exercise, I realise it may
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                          Dear Nina,

                                          thank you. I did some further but very limited research and found hiri is also been translated as modesty.

                                          From this exercise, I realise it may sometimes be difficult to find an exact English equivalent for a Pali term, since the English language evolved and is derived from cultures and traditions very dissimilar from Pali. English vocabulary is largely based on Latin/Greek, French, German, Norse and Celtic, depending how far back we look at it. These languages are used in societies with social structures, religious practices and philosophical ideas very different from ancient India.

                                          My earlier description is confined to the discussion within Cariya Sutta. That description is probably a one-liner summary of the sutta (which is already a short one), and the context within which hiri and ottappa are used. From your explanation, I gather that hiri (and ottappa) can be used in a broader context. I agree we do have to give considerations to a general meaning and hence English translation for both words.

                                          My understanding of both words are now as follows:

                                          hiri: modesty, ethical integrity, sense of shame, ability to distinguish/identify akusala (from kusala)

                                          ottappa: moral prudence, stopping short of akusala, with understanding of its negative effects

                                          In this way, hiri and ottappa work as a pair, able to identify akusala (hiri), and knowing its negative effects, one refrain from it (ottappa). What do you think?

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.


                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                          > I have a peep on Cariya Sutta, but hope Nina can comment further
                                          > on the word hirii. We are only halfway through Cariya Sutta, but
                                          > it seems to be discussing in particular "ethical integrity or
                                          > responsibility" regarding sexual relationships.

                                          N: I had not thought about it in this way. It is more like shrinking back from the dirt of defilements. Thus, the opposite of the pig who swallows in dirt, eats dirt. And then, there are many degrees of defilements, more gross and more subtle. Understanding can be developed of very subtle lobha we may not have known of before, or conceit we may not have noticed before. Like: 'I want to be a superior person', clinging to our own goodness. We learn to see through motives that seem very noble but which are directed towards gain for ourselves. We learn how often we deceive ourselves, mislead ourselves. It is understanding of the different cittas at the present moment that will teach us a lesson. Thus, hiri will develop. It arises with each and every kusala citta. When giving with generosity the citta is kusala and there is also hiri that shrinks back from avarice and selfish gain. When observing a precept like abstaining from slandering, there is also hiri that shrinks back from giving in to slandering.
                                        • Ong Yong Peng
                                          Dear Nina and friends, it is not obvious from this sutta if hiri and ottappa always arise in an ordered sequence, or if they can each operate independently.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                            Dear Nina and friends,

                                            it is not obvious from this sutta if hiri and ottappa always arise in an ordered sequence, or if they can each operate independently. Can you please explain. Thank you.

                                            metta,
                                            Yong Peng.


                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                                            In this way, hiri and ottappa work as a pair, able to identify akusala (hiri), and knowing its negative effects, one refrain from it (ottappa).
                                          • Kumâra Bhikkhu
                                            Good suggestions, Ria. Another word to consider is modesty. In fact, looking up that word on Buddhadatta s Eng-Pali Dictionary, I find hiri among the given
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                              Good suggestions, Ria.

                                              Another word to consider is modesty. In fact, looking up that word on Buddhadatta's Eng-Pali Dictionary, I find "hiri" among the given Pali words.

                                              Actually, I had wanted to look up "decency", but somehow typed "modesty" and found "hiri". I just recalled that this word somehow came up yesterday morning as I was waking up. If I recall correctly, this thread was the 3rd subject that come to my mind as I was still lying. Busy mind, huh?

                                              That's another word for your consideration, YP. I think "modesty" is much better than "sense of honour".

                                              kb

                                              grasje wrote thus at 10:32 PM 09-03-09:
                                              >Dear Yong Peng,
                                              >
                                              >Emotions that keep one from doing things causing regret might be dignity or self-respect. There might be better equivalents, not having the affinity with pride.
                                              >
                                              >Is decency another possibility for ottappa? On one hand, it smells like small-hearted suburbia, but on the othere hand immediately makes clear an amount of care for oneself and one's surroundings.
                                              >
                                              >Kind regards,
                                              >
                                              >Ria Glas
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >------------------------------------
                                              >
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                                            • Nina van Gorkom
                                              Dear Yong Peng, ... N: You are right, they work as a pair. I do not mind too much which word are chosen for their translation, so long as their characteristics
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 15, 2009
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                                                Dear Yong Peng,

                                                Op 15-mrt-2009, om 2:48 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                                                > My understanding of both words are now as follows:
                                                >
                                                > hiri: modesty, ethical integrity, sense of shame, ability to
                                                > distinguish/identify akusala (from kusala)
                                                >
                                                > ottappa: moral prudence, stopping short of akusala, with
                                                > understanding of its negative effects
                                                >
                                                > In this way, hiri and ottappa work as a pair, able to identify
                                                > akusala (hiri), and knowing its negative effects, one refrain from
                                                > it (ottappa). What do you think?
                                                -------
                                                N: You are right, they work as a pair. I do not mind too much which
                                                word are chosen for their translation, so long as their
                                                characteristics are understood.
                                                I would not use the term discern here, since this is the function of
                                                pa~n~naa. It is pa~n~naa that knows the difference between kusala and
                                                akusala.
                                                -------

                                                YP: t is not obvious from this sutta if hiri and ottappa always arise
                                                in an ordered sequence, or if they can each operate independently.
                                                Can you please explain.
                                                --------
                                                N: We learn through the Abhidhamma that whenever kusala citta arise
                                                it needs the asistance of at least nineteen sobhana cetasikas, all
                                                arising at the same time:
                                                19 Sobhana Cetasikas which accompany each Sobhana Citta


                                                confidence, saddha
                                                mindfulness, sati
                                                shame, hiri
                                                fear of blame, ottapa
                                                non-attachment, alobha
                                                non-aversion, adosa
                                                equanimity, tatramajjhattata

                                                calm of cetasikas, kaya-passaddhi
                                                calm of citta, citta-passaddhi

                                                lightness of cetasikas, kaya-lahuta
                                                lightness of citta, citta-lahuta

                                                pliancy of cetasikas, kiriya-muduta
                                                pliancy of citta, citta-muduta

                                                wieldiness of cetasikas, kiriya-kammannata
                                                wieldiness of citta, citta-kammannata

                                                proficiency of cetasikas, kiriya-pagunnata
                                                proficiency of citta, citta-pagunnata

                                                uprightness of cetasikas, kiriya-ujukata
                                                uprightness of citta, citta-ujukata


                                                6 Sobhana Cetasikas which do not accompany each sobhana Citta:

                                                abstinence from wrong speech, vaciduccarita virati
                                                abstinence from wrong, kayaduccarita virati
                                                abstinence from wrong livelihood, ajivaduccarita virati
                                                compassion, karuna
                                                sympathetic joy, mudita
                                                understanding or wisdom, panna
                                                -------------
                                                There cannot be any kusala without confidence in kusala, saddhaa.
                                                Also hiri and ottappa have to arise with each kusala citta.
                                                -------
                                                I quote more from my Cetasikas:
                                                We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fives, Chapter IX, 4)
                                                about the factors which, if a monk possesses them, hinder the
                                                attainment of the goal of monkhood, and about the factors which lead
                                                to the goal:

                                                Monks, possessed of five qualities, an elder becomes not what he
                                                ought to become...
                                                He is without faith (saddha), modesty (hiri), fear of blame
                                                (ottappa), he is lazy and lacks insight...
                                                Monks, possessed of five qualities an elder becomes what he
                                                ought to become...
                                                He has faith, modesty, fear of blame, he is diligent and
                                                develops insight...

                                                This sutta can remind both monks and laypeople that if there is no
                                                development of understanding of the reality appearing at this moment,
                                                people will not become what they ought to become: a person who has
                                                eradicated defilements. If we remember the shortness of life there
                                                will be more often moral shame and fear of blame which abhor laziness
                                                as regards kusala. The Buddha reminded people not to be heedless, but
                                                to be earnest, mindful at this very moment.

                                                To the extent that understanding develops, moral shame and fear
                                                of blame develop as well and they can become powers (balas). As we
                                                have seen, the five sobhana cetasikas which are classified as
                                                faculties, indriya, are also classified as powers, namely:
                                                confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. However,
                                                in addition to these five powers also moral shame and fear of blame
                                                can be classified as powers. We read in the Dhammasangani ( 30) about
                                                the power of moral shame, hiri, here translated as conscientiousness:

                                                The feeling of conscientious scruple which there is on that
                                                occasion when scruples ought to be felt, conscientious scruple at
                                                attaining to bad and evil state--- this is the power of
                                                conscientiousness that there then is.

                                                We read (in 31) about the power of fear of blame:

                                                The sense of guilt which there is on that occasion, where a
                                                sense of guilt ought to be felt, a sense of guilt at attaining to bad
                                                and evil states--- that is the fear of blame that there then is.

                                                A power is unshakeable by its opposite. The powers of moral shame and
                                                fear of blame cannot be shaken by their opposites shamelessness
                                                (ahirika) and recklessness (anottappa), which arise with each akusala
                                                citta.
                                                -----------
                                                Nina.



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • D.C. Wijeratna
                                                There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon. Traditionally, ‘hiri’ and
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 15, 2009
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                                                  There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the
                                                  range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon. Traditionally, ‘hiri’ and
                                                  ‘ottappa’ are interpreted as: shame of wrong-doing; fear of wrong doing.
                                                  Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                  especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.

                                                  D.G.D.C. Wijeratna







                                                  _____

                                                  From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kumâra
                                                  Bhikkhu
                                                  Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 9:34 AM
                                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: hiri (Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)})



                                                  Good suggestions, Ria.

                                                  Another word to consider is modesty. In fact, looking up that word on
                                                  Buddhadatta's Eng-Pali Dictionary, I find "hiri" among the given Pali words.

                                                  Actually, I had wanted to look up "decency", but somehow typed "modesty" and
                                                  found "hiri". I just recalled that this word somehow came up yesterday
                                                  morning as I was waking up. If I recall correctly, this thread was the 3rd
                                                  subject that come to my mind as I was still lying. Busy mind, huh?

                                                  That's another word for your consideration, YP. I think "modesty" is much
                                                  better than "sense of honour".

                                                  kb

                                                  grasje wrote thus at 10:32 PM 09-03-09:
                                                  >Dear Yong Peng,
                                                  >
                                                  >Emotions that keep one from doing things causing regret might be dignity or
                                                  self-respect. There might be better equivalents, not having the affinity
                                                  with pride.
                                                  >
                                                  >Is decency another possibility for ottappa? On one hand, it smells like
                                                  small-hearted suburbia, but on the othere hand immediately makes clear an
                                                  amount of care for oneself and one's surroundings.
                                                  >
                                                  >Kind regards,
                                                  >
                                                  >Ria Glas
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                  >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                                  >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka <http://www.tipitaka.net> .net
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                                                  s.com/paligroup/
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                                                  only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Ven. Kumara, Nina and DC, thank you. Thanks for the detailed explanation, Nina. It helps in furthering my understanding. I find DC s suggestions
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 16, 2009
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                                                    Dear Ven. Kumara, Nina and DC,

                                                    thank you. Thanks for the detailed explanation, Nina. It helps in furthering my understanding. I find DC's suggestions appropriate and fitting to our discussion:

                                                    * hiri: shame of wrong-doing (akusala)
                                                    * ottappa: fear of wrong-doing (akusala)

                                                    even though it is the fine level of citta we are dealing with, we have to accept the limitations of language, and for the antonyms, may I suggest:

                                                    * ahiri(ka): shamelessness
                                                    * anottappa: recklessness

                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng.


                                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                                    > hiri: modesty, ethical integrity, sense of shame, ability to
                                                    > distinguish/identify akusala (from kusala)
                                                    >
                                                    > ottappa: moral prudence, stopping short of akusala, with
                                                    > understanding of its negative effects
                                                    >
                                                    > In this way, hiri and ottappa work as a pair, able to identify
                                                    > akusala (hiri), and knowing its negative effects, one refrain from
                                                    > it (ottappa). What do you think?

                                                    N: You are right, they work as a pair. I do not mind too much which word are chosen for their translation, so long as their characteristics are understood. I would not use the term discern here, since this is the function of pa~n~naa. It is pa~n~naa that knows the difference between kusala and akusala.
                                                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                                    ... I fully agree with you on that. It s a perennial issue in translation, esp. when it comes to mental states. ... True. ... I hear you. I m just not so sure
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 20, 2009
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                                                      D.C. Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:52 AM 16-03-09:
                                                      >There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the
                                                      >range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon.

                                                      I fully agree with you on that. It's a perennial issue in translation, esp. when it comes to mental states.

                                                      >Traditionally, �hiri� and
                                                      >�ottappa� are interpreted as: shame of wrong-doing; fear of wrong doing.

                                                      True.

                                                      >Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                      >especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.

                                                      I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.

                                                      In practice, I find shame and fear to arise from sakkaayaditthi. Furthermore, they don't work very well in my spiritual development. OTOH, understanding the causes (as far down as I can) has been a far more effective and lasting solution.

                                                      So, with such repeated empirical examples of this in my life, I begin to wonder if the orthodox interpretations of hiri and ottappa are correct.

                                                      kb
                                                    • DC Wijeratna
                                                      ... The comment above was made on the basis of Devadhamma Jaataka. Jaataka No. 6. It is captioned by which could be of interest: hiriottappasampannaa
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 22, 2009
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                                                        >>Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                        >>especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.

                                                        >I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.

                                                        The comment above was made on the basis of Devadhamma Jaataka. Jaataka No. 6.
                                                        It is captioned by which could be of interest:
                                                        "hiriottappasampannaa sukkadhammasamaahitaa
                                                        santo sappurisaa loke devadhammaati vuccareti"
                                                         D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                                        ________________________________
                                                        From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:12:00 PM
                                                        Subject: RE: hiri and ottappa (Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)})

                                                        D.C. Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:52 AM 16-03-09:
                                                        >There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the
                                                        >range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon.

                                                        I fully agree with you on that. It's a perennial issue in translation, esp. when it comes to mental states.

                                                        >Traditionally, ‘hiri’ and
                                                        >‘ottappa’ are interpreted  as: shame of wrong-doing; fear of wrong doing.

                                                        True.

                                                        >Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                        >especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.

                                                        I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.

                                                        In practice, I find shame and fear to arise from sakkaayaditthi. Furthermore, they don't work very well in my spiritual development. OTOH, understanding the causes (as far down as I can) has been a far more effective and lasting solution.

                                                        So, with such repeated empirical examples of this in my life, I begin to wonder if the orthodox interpretations of hiri and ottappa are correct.

                                                        kb 



                                                        ------------------------------------

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                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                                        ... Thank you for sharing that. I do believe that hiriottappa are good qualities. I just doubt the common translation of them as shame and fear of wrong doing,
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 23, 2009
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                                                          DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 17:34 22/03/2009:
                                                          >>>Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                          >>>especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.
                                                          >
                                                          >>I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.
                                                          >
                                                          >The comment above was made on the basis of Devadhamma Jaataka. Jaataka No. 6.
                                                          >It is captioned by which could be of interest:
                                                          >"hiriottappasampannaa sukkadhammasamaahitaa
                                                          >santo sappurisaa loke devadhammaati vuccareti"

                                                          Thank you for sharing that. I do believe that hiriottappa are good qualities. I just doubt the common translation of them as shame and fear of wrong doing, which doesn't work in my experience.

                                                          kb


                                                          >________________________________
                                                          >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                                          >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:12:00 PM
                                                          >Subject: RE: hiri and ottappa (Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)})
                                                          >
                                                          >D.C. Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:52 AM 16-03-09:
                                                          >>There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the
                                                          >>range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon.
                                                          >
                                                          >I fully agree with you on that. It's a perennial issue in translation, esp. when it comes to mental states.
                                                          >
                                                          >>Traditionally, ‘hiri’ and
                                                          >>‘ottappa’ are interpreted as: shame of wrong-doing; fear of wrong doing.
                                                          >
                                                          >True.
                                                          >
                                                          >>Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
                                                          >>especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.
                                                          >
                                                          >I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.
                                                          >
                                                          >In practice, I find shame and fear to arise from sakkaayaditthi. Furthermore, they don't work very well in my spiritual development. OTOH, understanding the causes (as far down as I can) has been a far more effective and lasting solution.
                                                          >
                                                          >So, with such repeated empirical examples of this in my life, I begin to wonder if the orthodox interpretations of hiri and ottappa are correct.
                                                          >
                                                          >kb
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