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Re: [Pali] Saddaniiti: introductory verses 1 to 6

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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      Dear Nina,

      Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you
      posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught it
      as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another possibility for
      'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the benefit/sake
      of the Teaching'. I'm working on verses 7 & 8 and find 'mata.m'
      (understanding?) in verse 8 problematic and I'm not sure if one could
      translate the particle 'kaama.m' as 'indeed'.

      Verse 8:
      saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
      pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

      My tentative translation so far:
      And the attainment of the Truths is an understanding based on the practice,
      And the practice, indeed, has the Buddha word for its support. 8.

      Best wishes,
      Jim

      > Dear Jim, Mahinda and all,
      > Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging.
      > I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in
      > when he has time. I can follow Jim's translation.
      > Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
      >
      >> lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
      >> saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..
      >>
      >> I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
      >> Teaching,
      >> Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and
      >> whose
      >> guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||
      > -------
      > N: lokaniitiviyattassa: viyatta: determined, accomplished. Niiti:
      > guidance.
      > Jim: proficient in the guidance of the world.
      > satthu: gen. of the teacher.

      >> saddhammaniitino: also gen: could be: who points out the true
      >> Dhamma.???
      > iitino: of the one who guides.
      >> saddaniitimanaakula.m.: anaakula: unconfused. As Jim said: the
      >> Saddaniiti which is unconfused.
      > It is interesting to find here niiti again in the name Saddaniiti.
      > ---------
      > Nina.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Jim, ... N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on. Thank you very much. ... Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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        Dear Jim,
        Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

        > Did you see my response to the first response you
        > posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
        > caught it
        > as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
        > possibility for
        > 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
        > benefit/sake
        > of the Teaching'.
        ------
        N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
        Thank you very much.

        > 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
        Nina.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mahinda Palihawadana
        Dear Jim, Nina and others, I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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          Dear Jim, Nina and others,
          I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
          Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
          Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
          Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
          tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
          Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
          As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
          worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
          such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
          translate it.
          In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
          assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino//
          visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
          “resplendent in (their) pure qualities”
          saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
          than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.
          Verse 8:
          saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
          pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
          What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
          or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
          dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
          Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
          are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
          Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
          pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
          pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
          that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
          previous verse.
          Best wishes.
          Mahinda

          On 2/23/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          > Dear Jim,
          > Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
          >
          >> Did you see my response to the first response you
          >> posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
          >> caught it
          >> as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
          >> possibility for
          >> 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
          >> benefit/sake
          >> of the Teaching'.
          > ------
          > N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
          > Thank you very much.
          >
          >> 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
          > Nina.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them. Best
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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            Dear Mahinda,

            Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them
            over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them.

            Best wishes,
            Jim

            << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
            I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: >>
          • Kumara Bhikkhu
            Dear all, The word ariya is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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              Dear all,

              The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha" for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.

              Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?

              kb
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 25, 2009
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                Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,

                << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
                Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’ >>

                This may be just a matter of personal preferrence. I chose 'purified' for
                'visuddha.m' in verse 2 to distinguish it from 'pure' for 'suddha.m' in
                verse 3. I suppose my choice of 'purified' is also influenced by
                ~Naa.namoli's title of 'Path of Purification' for his Visuddhimagga
                translation. One objection might be that 'purified' is related to the
                causative form 'visodhita' but the meanings given for the verb 'visujjhati'
                in PED are: to be cleaned, to be cleansed, to be pure. I think the first two
                are practically synonymous with 'to be purifed'. At any rate, either 'pure'
                or 'purified' is fine, in my opinion.

                << Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
                Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
                tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
                Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
                As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
                worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
                such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
                translate it.
                In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
                assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino// >>

                In addition to the nom. pl. and gen. sg 'taadino' can also be acc. pl and
                dat. sg. I read 'taadino' in verse 4 as a dat. sing. in agreement with
                'sa"nghassa'. I was aware of 'such-like' but I thought it too vague in the
                context and chose 'like Him' instead to show clearly that the Sangha is like
                the Buddha which doesn't mean to say 'equal to him' since he has some
                additional powers and attainments not shared by his disciples. I will keep
                your interpretations in mind.

                << visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
                “resplendent in (their) pure qualities” >>

                Sounds good.

                << saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
                than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.>>

                Verse 6:
                I will be making some changes here. In my first attempt, I took -attha.m in
                the sense of visaya or gocara (scope or subject-matter) but now agree that
                'for the benefit or good of . . .' (saasanahitaaya) is better and more
                acceptable. Saasana is a difficult one to translate. It seems to suggest a
                religion or a tradition (what has been handed down). I was aware of
                'Dispensation' as I think that's how ~Naa.namoli translates it also but then
                should we not translate 'satthu', which has the same root, as 'of the
                Dispenser'? Perhaps 'saasana-' might be better left untranslated: "for the
                good of the Saasana". I believe that Buddhasaasana is synonymous with the
                Buddhist tradition or religion.

                << Verse 8:
                saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
                or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
                dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
                Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
                are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
                Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
                pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
                pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
                that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
                previous verse. >>

                For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to whether
                it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I follow
                the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the vinaya,
                abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the three
                pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold Saasana
                sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for finding
                one's bearing.

                Best wishes,
                Jim
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Jim and Mahinda, ... N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered, and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 26, 2009
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                  Dear Jim and Mahinda,
                  Op 26-feb-2009, om 1:45 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

                  > For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to
                  > whether
                  > it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I
                  > follow
                  > the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                  > pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the
                  > vinaya,
                  > abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the
                  > three
                  > pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold
                  > Saasana
                  > sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for
                  > finding
                  > one's bearing.
                  ------
                  N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered,
                  and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it relates to
                  learning to understand all realities as they occur at this moment
                  through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Thus, it
                  relates to our life at this moment and we have to learn this little
                  by little. In this way pariyatti can develop to pa.tipatti, the
                  actual practice of direct awareness and understanding.
                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Ven.. Kumara, I don t know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the following comment on ariyasaavako in the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 27, 2009
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                    Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                    I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                    following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:

                    "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                    paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                    atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                    saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                    vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                    sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                    veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                    It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                    ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                    category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                    come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                    ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                    disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                    depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                    in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                    possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                    suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                    further corroboration and further research.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jim

                    > Dear all,
                    >
                    > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                    > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                    > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                    > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                    >
                    > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                    >
                    > kb
                  • DC Wijeratna
                    My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                      My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories. By the way MN 1.1. is, most probably the only sutta in the canon, on hearing which the bhikkhus were not completely delighted (naabhinandunti).
                       D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                      ________________________________
                      From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:49:31 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                      Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                      I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                      following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya- a.t.thakathaa:

                      "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                      paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                      atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                      saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                      vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                      sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                      veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                      It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                      ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                      category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                      come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                      ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                      disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                      depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                      in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                      possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                      suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                      further corroboration and further research.

                      Best wishes,
                      Jim

                      > Dear all,
                      >
                      > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                      > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                      > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                      > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                      >
                      > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                      >
                      > kb







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Piya Tan
                      Dear Jim, The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are also defined on the same AA reference. Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                        Dear Jim,

                        The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                        also defined on the same AA reference.

                        Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                        sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who are
                        kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro to
                        my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:

                        http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf

                        Any comments are welcome.

                        With metta,

                        Piya Tan




                        On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                        > Dear Ven.. Kumara,
                        >
                        > I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                        > following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:
                        >
                        > "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                        > paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                        > atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                        > saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                        > vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                        > sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                        > veditabbo." -- Mp I 62
                        >
                        > It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not
                        > an
                        > ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                        > category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                        > come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                        > ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include
                        > the
                        > disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                        > depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                        > in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                        > possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                        > suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                        > further corroboration and further research.
                        >
                        > Best wishes,
                        > Jim
                        >
                        > > Dear all,
                        > >
                        > > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                        > > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                        > > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                        > > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                        > >
                        > > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                        > >
                        > > kb
                        >
                        >
                        >



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jim Anderson
                        Dear Piya, Thanks for mentioning the term sappurisa and giving a link to your discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 18, 2009
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                          Dear Piya,

                          Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                          discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                          asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                          religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                          include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                          individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                          much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                          say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                          Best wishes,
                          Jim

                          > Dear Jim,
                          >
                          > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                          > also defined on the same AA reference.
                          >
                          > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                          > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                          > are
                          > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                          > to
                          > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                          >
                          > http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf
                          >
                          > Any comments are welcome.
                          >
                          > With metta,
                          >
                          > Piya Tan
                          >
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Piya, I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have not read all yet. It is worth studying. Nina. ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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                            Dear Piya,
                            I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have
                            not read all yet. It is worth studying.
                            Nina.
                            -------
                            Piya:

                            > I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                            > > to
                            > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation

                            http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • DC Wijeratna
                            I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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                              I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May be I am mistaken.

                              Mettaa
                               D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                              ________________________________
                              From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                              Dear Piya,

                              Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                              discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                              asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                              religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                              include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                              individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                              much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                              say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                              Best wishes,
                              Jim

                              > Dear Jim,
                              >
                              > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                              > also defined on the same AA reference.
                              >
                              > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                              > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                              > are
                              > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                              > to
                              > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                              >
                              > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                              >
                              > Any comments are welcome.
                              >
                              > With metta,
                              >
                              > Piya Tan
                              >







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Piya Tan
                              Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in the early
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 20, 2009
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                                Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the
                                occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in
                                the early Suttas) that many words and terms are contextual. In other words,
                                it is not always the a word or term has a fixed meaning.

                                So too with sappurisa. This approach of course takes a lot of time, patience
                                and dexterity. But it is rewarding.

                                With metta,

                                Piya Tan

                                On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:57 PM, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:

                                > I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and
                                > sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a
                                > moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May
                                > be I am mistaken.
                                >
                                > Mettaa
                                >
                                > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@... <jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
                                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                >
                                > Dear Piya,
                                >
                                > Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                > discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                > asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                > religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                > include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                > individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I
                                > haven't
                                > much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                > say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.
                                >
                                > Best wishes,
                                > Jim
                                >
                                > > Dear Jim,
                                > >
                                > > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc
                                > are
                                > > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                > >
                                > > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think
                                > that
                                > > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                > > are
                                > > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                > > to
                                > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                > >
                                > > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                                > >
                                > > Any comments are welcome.
                                > >
                                > > With metta,
                                > >
                                > > Piya Tan
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                ... Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet Late Buddhism uses it so, I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                  DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                  >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                  Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                  So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                  kb
                                • DC Wijeratna
                                  Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.  D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ________________________________ From: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 2, 2009
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                                    Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                     D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                                    DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                    >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                    Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                    So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                    kb







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                    I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                      I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                      If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                      kb

                                      DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                      >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                      > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >________________________________
                                      >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                      >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                      >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                      >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                      >
                                      >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                      >
                                      >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                      >
                                      >kb
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >------------------------------------
                                      >
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                                    • DC Wijeratna
                                      Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu   KB: I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 23, 2009
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                                        Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                         
                                        KB: "I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                        If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know."
                                         
                                        DGDCW: I agree with you, re. first para. My understanding is that Theravaada is also yet another vaada. And therefore is not DHAMMA of the 'bhagavaa araha.m sammaasambuddho'.
                                         
                                        Basically ariya is an adjective having a sense of higher and the applicable meaning has to be derived from the context. The technical meaning of ariyasaavaka is one who is following the ariya.t.tha"ngikomaggo--aryan eightfoldpath. Pa.tipannasutta of SN 5.201 could provide an answer to your question. If the PTS edition is not available, have a look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Sutta "Practising" (Vol II p. 1675).

                                        Hope this will help you.

                                        Metta,
                                         D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:54:32 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya





                                        I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                        If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                        kb

                                        DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                        >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacc hikiriyaayapa. tipanno also.
                                        > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >___________ _________ _________ ___
                                        >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@.... net>
                                        >To: Pali@yahoogroups. com
                                        >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                        >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                        >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                        >
                                        >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                        >
                                        >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                        >
                                        >kb
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >----------- --------- --------- -------
                                        >
                                        >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                        >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                        >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                        >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                        >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                        >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. com
                                        >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
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