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Re: [Pali] Saddniiti: introductory verses 1 to 6

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Nina, Thank-you for your encouragement. I m not entirely satisfied with my translation and will likely be revising it. I find it difficult to know for
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 3, 2009
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      Dear Nina,

      Thank-you for your encouragement. I'm not entirely satisfied with my
      translation and will likely be revising it. I find it difficult to know for
      sure the meaning of "saasanattha.m". I translated it as "its scope the
      Teaching". I take the compound to function as an adjective qualifying
      "saddaniiti.m". Another possibility, and maybe a better one, is to take
      "-attha.m" in its adverbial accusative use, like -atthaaya, for the sake of,
      to the benefit of. In the third quarter of the 15th verse we come across
      "saasanassopakaaraaya" (dat. -- to/for the service or benefit of the
      Saasana) which seems to lend support for -attha.m having the meaning of
      "to/for the benefit of". I'm working on a webpage for the parts of the
      Saddaniiti I should translate. This will allow me to include detailed notes
      and update the page with my revisions. After I finish translating the
      introductory verses, I'm thinking of taking up the third pariccheda which
      comprises 9 miscellaneous treatises. The first one is the "atthudhaaro"
      (synopsis of the meanings [of homonyms]) using the examples of bhoti and
      bhave. I'm also continuing my studies of Kaccaayana, so I have plenty to
      keep me busy for a long time.

      Best wishes on your trip to Thailand,

      Jim

      > Dear Jim,
      > I am glad you posted them, the verses are very beautiful.
      > Introductory verses are important.
      > I am leaving for Thailand next week, but after my return I am looking
      > forward to read all the comments, and your following verses.
      > Nina.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Jim, Mahinda and all, Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging. I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in when he
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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        Dear Jim, Mahinda and all,
        Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging.
        I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in
        when he has time. I can follow Jim's translation.
        Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

        > lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
        > saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..
        >
        > I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
        > Teaching,
        > Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and
        > whose
        > guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||
        -------
        N: lokaniitiviyattassa: viyatta: determined, accomplished. Niiti:
        guidance.
        Jim: proficient in the guidance of the world.
        satthu: gen. of the teacher.
        > saddhammaniitino: also gen: could be: who points out the true
        > Dhamma.???
        iitino: of the one who guides.
        > saddaniitimanaakula.m.: anaakula: unconfused. As Jim said: the
        > Saddaniiti which is unconfused.
        It is interesting to find here niiti again in the name Saddaniiti.
        ---------
        Nina.








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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          Dear Nina,

          Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you
          posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught it
          as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another possibility for
          'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the benefit/sake
          of the Teaching'. I'm working on verses 7 & 8 and find 'mata.m'
          (understanding?) in verse 8 problematic and I'm not sure if one could
          translate the particle 'kaama.m' as 'indeed'.

          Verse 8:
          saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
          pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

          My tentative translation so far:
          And the attainment of the Truths is an understanding based on the practice,
          And the practice, indeed, has the Buddha word for its support. 8.

          Best wishes,
          Jim

          > Dear Jim, Mahinda and all,
          > Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging.
          > I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in
          > when he has time. I can follow Jim's translation.
          > Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
          >
          >> lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
          >> saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..
          >>
          >> I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
          >> Teaching,
          >> Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and
          >> whose
          >> guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||
          > -------
          > N: lokaniitiviyattassa: viyatta: determined, accomplished. Niiti:
          > guidance.
          > Jim: proficient in the guidance of the world.
          > satthu: gen. of the teacher.

          >> saddhammaniitino: also gen: could be: who points out the true
          >> Dhamma.???
          > iitino: of the one who guides.
          >> saddaniitimanaakula.m.: anaakula: unconfused. As Jim said: the
          >> Saddaniiti which is unconfused.
          > It is interesting to find here niiti again in the name Saddaniiti.
          > ---------
          > Nina.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Jim, ... N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on. Thank you very much. ... Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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            Dear Jim,
            Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

            > Did you see my response to the first response you
            > posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
            > caught it
            > as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
            > possibility for
            > 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
            > benefit/sake
            > of the Teaching'.
            ------
            N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
            Thank you very much.

            > 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
            Nina.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mahinda Palihawadana
            Dear Jim, Nina and others, I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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              Dear Jim, Nina and others,
              I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
              Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
              Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
              Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
              tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
              Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
              As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
              worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
              such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
              translate it.
              In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
              assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino//
              visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
              “resplendent in (their) pure qualities”
              saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
              than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.
              Verse 8:
              saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
              What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
              or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
              dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
              Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
              are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
              Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
              pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
              pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
              that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
              previous verse.
              Best wishes.
              Mahinda

              On 2/23/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              > Dear Jim,
              > Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
              >
              >> Did you see my response to the first response you
              >> posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
              >> caught it
              >> as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
              >> possibility for
              >> 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
              >> benefit/sake
              >> of the Teaching'.
              > ------
              > N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
              > Thank you very much.
              >
              >> 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
              > Nina.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them. Best
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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                Dear Mahinda,

                Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them
                over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them.

                Best wishes,
                Jim

                << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: >>
              • Kumara Bhikkhu
                Dear all, The word ariya is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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                  Dear all,

                  The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha" for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.

                  Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?

                  kb
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 25, 2009
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                    Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,

                    << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                    I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
                    Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’ >>

                    This may be just a matter of personal preferrence. I chose 'purified' for
                    'visuddha.m' in verse 2 to distinguish it from 'pure' for 'suddha.m' in
                    verse 3. I suppose my choice of 'purified' is also influenced by
                    ~Naa.namoli's title of 'Path of Purification' for his Visuddhimagga
                    translation. One objection might be that 'purified' is related to the
                    causative form 'visodhita' but the meanings given for the verb 'visujjhati'
                    in PED are: to be cleaned, to be cleansed, to be pure. I think the first two
                    are practically synonymous with 'to be purifed'. At any rate, either 'pure'
                    or 'purified' is fine, in my opinion.

                    << Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
                    Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
                    tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
                    Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
                    As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
                    worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
                    such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
                    translate it.
                    In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
                    assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino// >>

                    In addition to the nom. pl. and gen. sg 'taadino' can also be acc. pl and
                    dat. sg. I read 'taadino' in verse 4 as a dat. sing. in agreement with
                    'sa"nghassa'. I was aware of 'such-like' but I thought it too vague in the
                    context and chose 'like Him' instead to show clearly that the Sangha is like
                    the Buddha which doesn't mean to say 'equal to him' since he has some
                    additional powers and attainments not shared by his disciples. I will keep
                    your interpretations in mind.

                    << visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
                    “resplendent in (their) pure qualities” >>

                    Sounds good.

                    << saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
                    than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.>>

                    Verse 6:
                    I will be making some changes here. In my first attempt, I took -attha.m in
                    the sense of visaya or gocara (scope or subject-matter) but now agree that
                    'for the benefit or good of . . .' (saasanahitaaya) is better and more
                    acceptable. Saasana is a difficult one to translate. It seems to suggest a
                    religion or a tradition (what has been handed down). I was aware of
                    'Dispensation' as I think that's how ~Naa.namoli translates it also but then
                    should we not translate 'satthu', which has the same root, as 'of the
                    Dispenser'? Perhaps 'saasana-' might be better left untranslated: "for the
                    good of the Saasana". I believe that Buddhasaasana is synonymous with the
                    Buddhist tradition or religion.

                    << Verse 8:
                    saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                    pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                    What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
                    or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
                    dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
                    Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
                    are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
                    Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
                    pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
                    pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
                    that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
                    previous verse. >>

                    For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to whether
                    it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I follow
                    the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                    pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the vinaya,
                    abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the three
                    pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold Saasana
                    sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for finding
                    one's bearing.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jim
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Jim and Mahinda, ... N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered, and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 26, 2009
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                      Dear Jim and Mahinda,
                      Op 26-feb-2009, om 1:45 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

                      > For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to
                      > whether
                      > it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I
                      > follow
                      > the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                      > pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the
                      > vinaya,
                      > abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the
                      > three
                      > pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold
                      > Saasana
                      > sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for
                      > finding
                      > one's bearing.
                      ------
                      N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered,
                      and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it relates to
                      learning to understand all realities as they occur at this moment
                      through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Thus, it
                      relates to our life at this moment and we have to learn this little
                      by little. In this way pariyatti can develop to pa.tipatti, the
                      actual practice of direct awareness and understanding.
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jim Anderson
                      Dear Ven.. Kumara, I don t know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the following comment on ariyasaavako in the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 27, 2009
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                        Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                        I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                        following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:

                        "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                        paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                        atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                        saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                        vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                        sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                        veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                        It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                        ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                        category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                        come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                        ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                        disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                        depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                        in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                        possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                        suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                        further corroboration and further research.

                        Best wishes,
                        Jim

                        > Dear all,
                        >
                        > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                        > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                        > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                        > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                        >
                        > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                        >
                        > kb
                      • DC Wijeratna
                        My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 17 6:48 AM
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                          My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories. By the way MN 1.1. is, most probably the only sutta in the canon, on hearing which the bhikkhus were not completely delighted (naabhinandunti).
                           D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                          ________________________________
                          From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:49:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                          Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                          I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                          following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya- a.t.thakathaa:

                          "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                          paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                          atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                          saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                          vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                          sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                          veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                          It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                          ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                          category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                          come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                          ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                          disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                          depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                          in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                          possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                          suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                          further corroboration and further research.

                          Best wishes,
                          Jim

                          > Dear all,
                          >
                          > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                          > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                          > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                          > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                          >
                          > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                          >
                          > kb







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Piya Tan
                          Dear Jim, The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are also defined on the same AA reference. Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 17 9:15 PM
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                            Dear Jim,

                            The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                            also defined on the same AA reference.

                            Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                            sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who are
                            kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro to
                            my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:

                            http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf

                            Any comments are welcome.

                            With metta,

                            Piya Tan




                            On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                            > Dear Ven.. Kumara,
                            >
                            > I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                            > following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:
                            >
                            > "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                            > paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                            > atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                            > saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                            > vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                            > sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                            > veditabbo." -- Mp I 62
                            >
                            > It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not
                            > an
                            > ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                            > category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                            > come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                            > ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include
                            > the
                            > disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                            > depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                            > in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                            > possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                            > suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                            > further corroboration and further research.
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            > Jim
                            >
                            > > Dear all,
                            > >
                            > > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                            > > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                            > > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                            > > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                            > >
                            > > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                            > >
                            > > kb
                            >
                            >
                            >



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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jim Anderson
                            Dear Piya, Thanks for mentioning the term sappurisa and giving a link to your discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 18 4:07 PM
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                              Dear Piya,

                              Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                              discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                              asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                              religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                              include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                              individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                              much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                              say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                              Best wishes,
                              Jim

                              > Dear Jim,
                              >
                              > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                              > also defined on the same AA reference.
                              >
                              > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                              > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                              > are
                              > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                              > to
                              > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                              >
                              > http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf
                              >
                              > Any comments are welcome.
                              >
                              > With metta,
                              >
                              > Piya Tan
                              >
                            • Nina van Gorkom
                              Dear Piya, I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have not read all yet. It is worth studying. Nina. ...
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 19 1:32 AM
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                                Dear Piya,
                                I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have
                                not read all yet. It is worth studying.
                                Nina.
                                -------
                                Piya:

                                > I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                > > to
                                > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation

                                http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • DC Wijeratna
                                I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 19 4:57 AM
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                                  I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May be I am mistaken.

                                  Mettaa
                                   D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                                  Dear Piya,

                                  Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                  discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                  asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                  religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                  include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                  individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                                  much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                  say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                                  Best wishes,
                                  Jim

                                  > Dear Jim,
                                  >
                                  > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                                  > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                  >
                                  > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                                  > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                  > are
                                  > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                  > to
                                  > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                  >
                                  > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                                  >
                                  > Any comments are welcome.
                                  >
                                  > With metta,
                                  >
                                  > Piya Tan
                                  >







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Piya Tan
                                  Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in the early
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 20 6:30 PM
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                                    Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the
                                    occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in
                                    the early Suttas) that many words and terms are contextual. In other words,
                                    it is not always the a word or term has a fixed meaning.

                                    So too with sappurisa. This approach of course takes a lot of time, patience
                                    and dexterity. But it is rewarding.

                                    With metta,

                                    Piya Tan

                                    On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:57 PM, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:

                                    > I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and
                                    > sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a
                                    > moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May
                                    > be I am mistaken.
                                    >
                                    > Mettaa
                                    >
                                    > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@... <jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
                                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                    >
                                    > Dear Piya,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                    > discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                    > asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                    > religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                    > include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                    > individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I
                                    > haven't
                                    > much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                    > say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    > Jim
                                    >
                                    > > Dear Jim,
                                    > >
                                    > > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc
                                    > are
                                    > > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think
                                    > that
                                    > > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                    > > are
                                    > > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                    > > to
                                    > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                                    > >
                                    > > Any comments are welcome.
                                    > >
                                    > > With metta,
                                    > >
                                    > > Piya Tan
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                    ... Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet Late Buddhism uses it so, I
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 31 10:58 PM
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                                      DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                      >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                      Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                      So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                      kb
                                    • DC Wijeratna
                                      Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.  D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ________________________________ From: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 2, 2009
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                                        Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                         D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                                        DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                        >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                        Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                        So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                        kb







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                        I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                          I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                          If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                          kb

                                          DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                          >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                          > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >________________________________
                                          >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                          >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                          >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                          >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                          >
                                          >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                          >
                                          >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                          >
                                          >kb
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                          >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                          >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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                                        • DC Wijeratna
                                          Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu   KB: I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 23, 2009
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                                            Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                             
                                            KB: "I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                            If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know."
                                             
                                            DGDCW: I agree with you, re. first para. My understanding is that Theravaada is also yet another vaada. And therefore is not DHAMMA of the 'bhagavaa araha.m sammaasambuddho'.
                                             
                                            Basically ariya is an adjective having a sense of higher and the applicable meaning has to be derived from the context. The technical meaning of ariyasaavaka is one who is following the ariya.t.tha"ngikomaggo--aryan eightfoldpath. Pa.tipannasutta of SN 5.201 could provide an answer to your question. If the PTS edition is not available, have a look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Sutta "Practising" (Vol II p. 1675).

                                            Hope this will help you.

                                            Metta,
                                             D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:54:32 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya





                                            I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                            If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                            kb

                                            DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                            >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacc hikiriyaayapa. tipanno also.
                                            > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >___________ _________ _________ ___
                                            >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@.... net>
                                            >To: Pali@yahoogroups. com
                                            >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                            >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                            >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                            >
                                            >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                            >
                                            >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                            >
                                            >kb
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >----------- --------- --------- -------
                                            >
                                            >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                            >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                            >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                            >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                            >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                            >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. com
                                            >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
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                                            >






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