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Saddniiti: introductory verses 1 to 6

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear all, The following is my attempt so far at a translation of the first six of the fifteen introductory verses at the beginning of the Padamaalaa. I know
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Dear all,

      The following is my attempt so far at a translation of the first six of the
      fifteen introductory verses at the beginning of the Padamaalaa. I know the
      translation will have its defects and would appreciate them being pointed
      out. I will post the other verses later when I've translated them. I found
      the 6th verse to be the most challenging. I haven't included any notes to
      the verses as I thought it would be distracting and make this posting too
      long.

      ganthaarambhakathaa

      Introduction

      dhiirehi magganaayena, yena buddhena desita.m.
      sita.m dhammamidha~n~naaya, ~naayate amata.m pada.m..

      Understanding in this world the pure Dhamma taught by the Buddha
      Who leads the way, the wise come to know the deathless element. || 1 ||

      ta.m namitvaa mahaaviira.m, sabba~n~nu.m lokanaayaka.m.
      mahaakaaru.nika.m se.t.tha.m, visuddha.m suddhidaayaka.m..

      Having bowed to Him, the great hero, the all-knowing, guide to the world,
      The great compassionate one, the best, purified, the giver of purity; || 2
      ||

      saddhamma~ncassa puujetvaa, suddha.m santamasa"nkhata.m.
      atakkaavacara.m su.t.thu, vibhatta.m madhura.m siva.m..

      Having honoured His True Dhamma, pure, peaceful, unconditioned,
      Beyond the sphere of logic, well-apportioned, sweet, auspicious; || 3 ||

      sa"nghassa ca'~njali.m katvaa, pu~n~nakkhettassa taadino.
      siilasamaadhipa~n~naadi-visuddhagu.najotino..

      And with joined palms having saluted the Sangha, like Him, a field of merit,
      The splendour of the purified qualities of siila, samaadhi, paññaa, and so
      on; || 4 ||

      namassanaadipu~n~nassa, katassa ratanattaye.
      tejasaaha.m pahantvaana, antaraaye asesato..

      Having destroyed the obstacles without remainder through the power of
      The merit of bowing, and so on, performed towards the Jewel Triad; || 5 ||

      lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
      saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..

      I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
      Teaching,
      Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and whose
      guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||

      Best wishes,
      Jim
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Jim, I am glad you posted them, the verses are very beautiful. Introductory verses are important. I am leaving for Thailand next week, but after my return
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2009
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        Dear Jim,
        I am glad you posted them, the verses are very beautiful.
        Introductory verses are important.
        I am leaving for Thailand next week, but after my return I am looking
        forward to read all the comments, and your following verses.
        Nina.
        Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

        > The following is my attempt so far at a translation of the first
        > six of the
        > fifteen introductory verses at the beginning of the Padamaalaa.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Nina, Thank-you for your encouragement. I m not entirely satisfied with my translation and will likely be revising it. I find it difficult to know for
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 3, 2009
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          Dear Nina,

          Thank-you for your encouragement. I'm not entirely satisfied with my
          translation and will likely be revising it. I find it difficult to know for
          sure the meaning of "saasanattha.m". I translated it as "its scope the
          Teaching". I take the compound to function as an adjective qualifying
          "saddaniiti.m". Another possibility, and maybe a better one, is to take
          "-attha.m" in its adverbial accusative use, like -atthaaya, for the sake of,
          to the benefit of. In the third quarter of the 15th verse we come across
          "saasanassopakaaraaya" (dat. -- to/for the service or benefit of the
          Saasana) which seems to lend support for -attha.m having the meaning of
          "to/for the benefit of". I'm working on a webpage for the parts of the
          Saddaniiti I should translate. This will allow me to include detailed notes
          and update the page with my revisions. After I finish translating the
          introductory verses, I'm thinking of taking up the third pariccheda which
          comprises 9 miscellaneous treatises. The first one is the "atthudhaaro"
          (synopsis of the meanings [of homonyms]) using the examples of bhoti and
          bhave. I'm also continuing my studies of Kaccaayana, so I have plenty to
          keep me busy for a long time.

          Best wishes on your trip to Thailand,

          Jim

          > Dear Jim,
          > I am glad you posted them, the verses are very beautiful.
          > Introductory verses are important.
          > I am leaving for Thailand next week, but after my return I am looking
          > forward to read all the comments, and your following verses.
          > Nina.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Jim, Mahinda and all, Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging. I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in when he
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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            Dear Jim, Mahinda and all,
            Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging.
            I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in
            when he has time. I can follow Jim's translation.
            Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

            > lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
            > saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..
            >
            > I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
            > Teaching,
            > Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and
            > whose
            > guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||
            -------
            N: lokaniitiviyattassa: viyatta: determined, accomplished. Niiti:
            guidance.
            Jim: proficient in the guidance of the world.
            satthu: gen. of the teacher.
            > saddhammaniitino: also gen: could be: who points out the true
            > Dhamma.???
            iitino: of the one who guides.
            > saddaniitimanaakula.m.: anaakula: unconfused. As Jim said: the
            > Saddaniiti which is unconfused.
            It is interesting to find here niiti again in the name Saddaniiti.
            ---------
            Nina.








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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              Dear Nina,

              Thanks for your comments. Did you see my response to the first response you
              posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you caught it
              as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another possibility for
              'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the benefit/sake
              of the Teaching'. I'm working on verses 7 & 8 and find 'mata.m'
              (understanding?) in verse 8 problematic and I'm not sure if one could
              translate the particle 'kaama.m' as 'indeed'.

              Verse 8:
              saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
              pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

              My tentative translation so far:
              And the attainment of the Truths is an understanding based on the practice,
              And the practice, indeed, has the Buddha word for its support. 8.

              Best wishes,
              Jim

              > Dear Jim, Mahinda and all,
              > Jim, you found the sixth verse the most challenging.
              > I tried to go over it, and I am always so glad when Mahinda comes in
              > when he has time. I can follow Jim's translation.
              > Op 1-feb-2009, om 19:10 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
              >
              >> lokaniitiviyattassa, satthu saddhammaniitino.
              >> saasanattha.m pavakkhaami, saddaniitimanaakula.m..
              >>
              >> I will now expound the Saddaniiti which is unconfused, its scope the
              >> Teaching,
              >> Of the Teacher who is proficient in the guidance of the world and
              >> whose
              >> guidance is the True Dhamma. || 6 ||
              > -------
              > N: lokaniitiviyattassa: viyatta: determined, accomplished. Niiti:
              > guidance.
              > Jim: proficient in the guidance of the world.
              > satthu: gen. of the teacher.

              >> saddhammaniitino: also gen: could be: who points out the true
              >> Dhamma.???
              > iitino: of the one who guides.
              >> saddaniitimanaakula.m.: anaakula: unconfused. As Jim said: the
              >> Saddaniiti which is unconfused.
              > It is interesting to find here niiti again in the name Saddaniiti.
              > ---------
              > Nina.
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Jim, ... N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on. Thank you very much. ... Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 23, 2009
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                Dear Jim,
                Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

                > Did you see my response to the first response you
                > posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
                > caught it
                > as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
                > possibility for
                > 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
                > benefit/sake
                > of the Teaching'.
                ------
                N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
                Thank you very much.

                > 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
                Nina.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mahinda Palihawadana
                Dear Jim, Nina and others, I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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                  Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                  I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
                  Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’
                  Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
                  Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
                  tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
                  Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
                  As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
                  worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
                  such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
                  translate it.
                  In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
                  assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino//
                  visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
                  “resplendent in (their) pure qualities”
                  saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
                  than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.
                  Verse 8:
                  saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                  pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                  What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
                  or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
                  dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
                  Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
                  are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
                  Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
                  pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
                  pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
                  that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
                  previous verse.
                  Best wishes.
                  Mahinda

                  On 2/23/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                  > Dear Jim,
                  > Op 23-feb-2009, om 15:05 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  >> Did you see my response to the first response you
                  >> posted on Feb. 1? I sent it a few days later but not sure if you
                  >> caught it
                  >> as you were about to leave for Thailand. I suggested another
                  >> possibility for
                  >> 'saasanattha.m'. Instead of 'its scope the Teaching', 'for the
                  >> benefit/sake
                  >> of the Teaching'.
                  > ------
                  > N: I am still catching up and will read your translation later on.
                  > Thank you very much.
                  >
                  >> 'saasanattha.m'. I also think benefit is better.
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Mahinda, Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them. Best
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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                    Dear Mahinda,

                    Thank-you for your helpful comments. I need to spend more time thinking them
                    over before getting back to you with my thoughts on them.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jim

                    << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                    I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration: >>
                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                    Dear all, The word ariya is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 24, 2009
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                      Dear all,

                      The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha" for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.

                      Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?

                      kb
                    • Jim Anderson
                      Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 25, 2009
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                        Dear Mahinda, Nina, and others,

                        << Dear Jim, Nina and others,
                        I would like to make a few cxomments for Jim’s consideration:
                        Verse 2: ‘visuddha.m’ :‘pure’ rather than ‘purified’ >>

                        This may be just a matter of personal preferrence. I chose 'purified' for
                        'visuddha.m' in verse 2 to distinguish it from 'pure' for 'suddha.m' in
                        verse 3. I suppose my choice of 'purified' is also influenced by
                        ~Naa.namoli's title of 'Path of Purification' for his Visuddhimagga
                        translation. One objection might be that 'purified' is related to the
                        causative form 'visodhita' but the meanings given for the verb 'visujjhati'
                        in PED are: to be cleaned, to be cleansed, to be pure. I think the first two
                        are practically synonymous with 'to be purifed'. At any rate, either 'pure'
                        or 'purified' is fine, in my opinion.

                        << Verse 4 : taadino. like Him?
                        Taadi, “such-like” “of such qualities” is a word that reminds one of
                        tathaagata. Like the latter it is used to refer to the Buddha and the
                        Arahants. (See PTSD s.v.) Taadino can be either nom. pl. or gen. sg.
                        As gen sg it can refer to the Sangha, (the Sangha of such
                        worthiness); as nom.pl to the Buddha (the Sangha of the Buddha of
                        such worthiness). You will have to find a proper word/words to
                        translate it.
                        In the Mahaa-parinibbaa.na-sutta taadi occurs in the statement “naahu
                        assaasa-passaaso/ .thitacittassa taadino// >>

                        In addition to the nom. pl. and gen. sg 'taadino' can also be acc. pl and
                        dat. sg. I read 'taadino' in verse 4 as a dat. sing. in agreement with
                        'sa"nghassa'. I was aware of 'such-like' but I thought it too vague in the
                        context and chose 'like Him' instead to show clearly that the Sangha is like
                        the Buddha which doesn't mean to say 'equal to him' since he has some
                        additional powers and attainments not shared by his disciples. I will keep
                        your interpretations in mind.

                        << visuddhagu.najotino. the splendour of the purified qualities? Perhaps
                        “resplendent in (their) pure qualities” >>

                        Sounds good.

                        << saasanattha.m: . Perhaps "for the benefit of the Dispensation" rather
                        than "for the benefit of the Teaching", in this context.>>

                        Verse 6:
                        I will be making some changes here. In my first attempt, I took -attha.m in
                        the sense of visaya or gocara (scope or subject-matter) but now agree that
                        'for the benefit or good of . . .' (saasanahitaaya) is better and more
                        acceptable. Saasana is a difficult one to translate. It seems to suggest a
                        religion or a tradition (what has been handed down). I was aware of
                        'Dispensation' as I think that's how ~Naa.namoli translates it also but then
                        should we not translate 'satthu', which has the same root, as 'of the
                        Dispenser'? Perhaps 'saasana-' might be better left untranslated: "for the
                        good of the Saasana". I believe that Buddhasaasana is synonymous with the
                        Buddhist tradition or religion.

                        << Verse 8:
                        saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
                        pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
                        What this seems to say is that the attainment of Truth is considered
                        or known to be based on practice, and the practice certainly is
                        dependent on learning of the teaching. (Pariyatti =textual learning,
                        Pa.tipatti: ethical practice and Pa.tivedha: realization of the Truth
                        are traditionally regarded as the three pillars of the religious life.
                        Here adhigama is the same as Pa.tivedha.) ta.m adhigama.m and saa
                        pa.tipatti are gramatically parallel, adhigama.m being neuter and
                        pa.tipatti being feminine. The author says ta.m ca adhigama.m (and
                        that realization) because he has already referred to it in the
                        previous verse. >>

                        For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to whether
                        it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I follow
                        the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                        pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the vinaya,
                        abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the three
                        pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold Saasana
                        sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for finding
                        one's bearing.

                        Best wishes,
                        Jim
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Jim and Mahinda, ... N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered, and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 26, 2009
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                          Dear Jim and Mahinda,
                          Op 26-feb-2009, om 1:45 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

                          > For the meaning of 'pariyatti' I have been somewhat confused as to
                          > whether
                          > it refers to scriptural/textual learning or the texts themselves. I
                          > follow
                          > the Abh-.t gloss on 'pariyatti' in Abh 784 which has "pariyatti
                          > pariyaapu.nitabbaa vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa." = "pariyatti is the
                          > vinaya,
                          > abhidhamma, & suttanta to be learnt or fully-mastered". I think the
                          > three
                          > pillars of the religious life or, in other words, the three-fold
                          > Saasana
                          > sums it up beautifully and serves as a great conceptual model for
                          > finding
                          > one's bearing.
                          ------
                          N: This is a very interesting gloss. To be learnt and fully mastered,
                          and here I would like to add: pariyatti is not theory, it relates to
                          learning to understand all realities as they occur at this moment
                          through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Thus, it
                          relates to our life at this moment and we have to learn this little
                          by little. In this way pariyatti can develop to pa.tipatti, the
                          actual practice of direct awareness and understanding.
                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jim Anderson
                          Dear Ven.. Kumara, I don t know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the following comment on ariyasaavako in the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 27, 2009
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                            Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                            I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                            following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:

                            "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                            paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                            atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                            saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                            vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                            sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                            veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                            It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                            ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                            category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                            come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                            ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                            disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                            depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                            in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                            possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                            suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                            further corroboration and further research.

                            Best wishes,
                            Jim

                            > Dear all,
                            >
                            > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                            > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                            > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                            > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                            >
                            > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                            >
                            > kb
                          • DC Wijeratna
                            My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                              My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories. By the way MN 1.1. is, most probably the only sutta in the canon, on hearing which the bhikkhus were not completely delighted (naabhinandunti).
                               D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                              ________________________________
                              From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:49:31 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                              Dear Ven.. Kumara,

                              I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                              following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya- a.t.thakathaa:

                              "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                              paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                              atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                              saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                              vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                              sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                              veditabbo." -- Mp I 62

                              It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not an
                              ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                              category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                              come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                              ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include the
                              disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                              depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                              in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                              possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                              suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                              further corroboration and further research.

                              Best wishes,
                              Jim

                              > Dear all,
                              >
                              > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                              > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                              > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                              > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                              >
                              > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                              >
                              > kb







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Piya Tan
                              Dear Jim, The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are also defined on the same AA reference. Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 17, 2009
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                                Dear Jim,

                                The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                                also defined on the same AA reference.

                                Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                                sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who are
                                kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro to
                                my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:

                                http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf

                                Any comments are welcome.

                                With metta,

                                Piya Tan




                                On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                                > Dear Ven.. Kumara,
                                >
                                > I don't know much about this myself but a few weeks ago I came across the
                                > following comment on "ariyasaavako" in the A"nguttaranikaaya-a.t.thakathaa:
                                >
                                > "Ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva
                                > paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo, seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo;
                                > atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi puthutitthiyaa. Atthi ariyo ceva
                                > saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa
                                > vi~n~naatasaasanaa. Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci
                                > sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti
                                > veditabbo." -- Mp I 62
                                >
                                > It defines who is called an ariyan but not a disciple, a disciple but not
                                > an
                                > ariyan, neither, both. Only buddhas or paccekabuddhas belong to the first
                                > category. One who is both an ariyan and a disciple is one whose fruit has
                                > come and does not belong to the first category. Elsewhere, I have seen an
                                > ariyasaavaka defined as a disciple of an ariyan which would also include
                                > the
                                > disciple whose fruit has not come (the 2nd category above). The diffrence
                                > depends on how one inteprets the compound (kammadhaaraya or tappurisa) and
                                > in the last sentence with "yo koci... sutasampanno" (anyone who is
                                > possessed of hearing [the Dhamma]), the ariyasaavaka in the sutta would
                                > suggest the inclusion of both categories 2 and 4. However, all this needs
                                > further corroboration and further research.
                                >
                                > Best wishes,
                                > Jim
                                >
                                > > Dear all,
                                > >
                                > > The word "ariya" is often used now to mean one who is among the 8 type of
                                > > individuals in the standard recollection of the Sangha. However, is this
                                > > how it is used in the suttas? I see "asekha" for the arahanta and "sekha"
                                > > for the rest, but not ariya. Ariya is used in other contexts.
                                > >
                                > > Any knowledge on this? Know any studies done on this?
                                > >
                                > > kb
                                >
                                >
                                >



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jim Anderson
                                Dear Piya, Thanks for mentioning the term sappurisa and giving a link to your discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 18, 2009
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                                  Dear Piya,

                                  Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                  discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                  asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                  religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                  include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                  individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                                  much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                  say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                                  Best wishes,
                                  Jim

                                  > Dear Jim,
                                  >
                                  > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                                  > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                  >
                                  > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                                  > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                  > are
                                  > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                  > to
                                  > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                  >
                                  > http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf
                                  >
                                  > Any comments are welcome.
                                  >
                                  > With metta,
                                  >
                                  > Piya Tan
                                  >
                                • Nina van Gorkom
                                  Dear Piya, I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have not read all yet. It is worth studying. Nina. ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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                                    Dear Piya,
                                    I am impressed by the detailed documentation. Thoroughly done. I have
                                    not read all yet. It is worth studying.
                                    Nina.
                                    -------
                                    Piya:

                                    > I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                    > > to
                                    > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation

                                    http://earlypalisutta.googlepages.com/23.7SappurisaSuttam113piya.pdf






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • DC Wijeratna
                                    I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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                                      I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May be I am mistaken.

                                      Mettaa
                                       D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
                                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                                      Dear Piya,

                                      Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                      discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                      asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                      religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                      include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                      individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I haven't
                                      much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                      say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.

                                      Best wishes,
                                      Jim

                                      > Dear Jim,
                                      >
                                      > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc are
                                      > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                      >
                                      > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think that
                                      > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                      > are
                                      > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                      > to
                                      > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                      >
                                      > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                                      >
                                      > Any comments are welcome.
                                      >
                                      > With metta,
                                      >
                                      > Piya Tan
                                      >







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Piya Tan
                                      Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in the early
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 20, 2009
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                                        Ideally, we need to look up, tabulate, compare and deliberate on all the
                                        occurrences of the term and its related forms. Often we will find (esp in
                                        the early Suttas) that many words and terms are contextual. In other words,
                                        it is not always the a word or term has a fixed meaning.

                                        So too with sappurisa. This approach of course takes a lot of time, patience
                                        and dexterity. But it is rewarding.

                                        With metta,

                                        Piya Tan

                                        On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:57 PM, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:

                                        > I have the impression that ariya/non ariya distinction is one and
                                        > sappurisa/asappurisa is anoteher. Sammpurisa/asappurisa is essentially a
                                        > moral or ethica and ariya/non-ariya is related to knowledge and vision. May
                                        > be I am mistaken.
                                        >
                                        > Mettaa
                                        >
                                        > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@... <jimanderson.on%40gmail.com>>
                                        > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:37:40 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                        >
                                        > Dear Piya,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for mentioning the term 'sappurisa' and giving a link to your
                                        > discussion of it. I had a quick glance and the part where you refer to the
                                        > asappurisa or false individual as one who "shows conceit on account of his
                                        > religious state" caught my attention. Wouldn't the asappurisa therefore
                                        > include the sekkha or learner (including the non-returner) since such an
                                        > individual has yet to get rid of the fetter of conceit? I'm afraid I
                                        > haven't
                                        > much time right now to start looking up what the Pali commentaries have to
                                        > say about the term sappurisa or asappurisa.
                                        >
                                        > Best wishes,
                                        > Jim
                                        >
                                        > > Dear Jim,
                                        > >
                                        > > The helpful AA definition of ariya,saavaka is helpful; puthuijjana etc
                                        > are
                                        > > also defined on the same AA reference.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ariya,saavaka and sappurisa are often mentioned together too. I think
                                        > that
                                        > > sappurisa sometimes refers ariyas and sometimes to their disciples (who
                                        > > are
                                        > > kalya.na puthujjana). I've discussed SAPPURISA in Section 3 of the Intro
                                        > > to
                                        > > my Sappurisa Sutta (M 113) translation:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://earlypalisut ta.googlepages. com/23.7Sappuris aSuttam113piya. pdf
                                        > >
                                        > > Any comments are welcome.
                                        > >
                                        > > With metta,
                                        > >
                                        > > Piya Tan
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        --
                                        The Minding Centre
                                        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                                        Singapore 650644
                                        Tel: 8211 0879
                                        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                                        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                        ... Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet Late Buddhism uses it so, I
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                          DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                          >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                          Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                          So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                          kb
                                        • DC Wijeratna
                                          Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.  D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ________________________________ From: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 2, 2009
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                                            Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                             D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya


                                            DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                            >My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.

                                            Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)

                                            So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.

                                            kb







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Kumara Bhikkhu
                                            I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                              I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                              If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                              kb

                                              DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                              >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaayapa.tipanno also.
                                              > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >________________________________
                                              >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                              >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                              >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                              >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                              >
                                              >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                              >
                                              >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                              >
                                              >kb
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                              >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                              >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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                                            • DC Wijeratna
                                              Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu   KB: I understand, assuming you mean bhagavato savakasangho as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Apr 23, 2009
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                                                Attention: Kumara Bhikkhu
                                                 
                                                KB: "I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                                If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know."
                                                 
                                                DGDCW: I agree with you, re. first para. My understanding is that Theravaada is also yet another vaada. And therefore is not DHAMMA of the 'bhagavaa araha.m sammaasambuddho'.
                                                 
                                                Basically ariya is an adjective having a sense of higher and the applicable meaning has to be derived from the context. The technical meaning of ariyasaavaka is one who is following the ariya.t.tha"ngikomaggo--aryan eightfoldpath. Pa.tipannasutta of SN 5.201 could provide an answer to your question. If the PTS edition is not available, have a look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Sutta "Practising" (Vol II p. 1675).

                                                Hope this will help you.

                                                Metta,
                                                 D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:54:32 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya





                                                I understand, assuming you mean "bhagavato savakasangho" as in the stock phrase definition of sangha in the suttas. For orthodox Theravada though, this would be meaningless to say, as it holds the view that magga and phala are two adjacent thought moments.

                                                If anyone can find in the suttas where "ariya" means any among the "4 pairs of persons", please let me know.

                                                kb

                                                DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:08 PM 02-04-09:
                                                >Ariya also includes sotaapattiphalasacc hikiriyaayapa. tipanno also.
                                                > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >___________ _________ _________ ___
                                                >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@.... net>
                                                >To: Pali@yahoogroups. com
                                                >Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:28:53 AM
                                                >Subject: Re: [Pali] Ariya
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:48 PM 17-03-09:
                                                >>My understanding of ariya is as follows: Beings in this world consist of ariyas and puthujjanas. Puthujjana is what is usually translated as worldlings, mere-worldlings, common-man etc. In the Mulapariyaaya sutta, MN 1 1. the world is dividied into puthujjana, sekha, asekha and the Sammaasambuddha. So ariyans include, the last three categories.
                                                >
                                                >Yes, and since the word ariyan (or ariya) is not mentioned here (or any other suttas AFIAK) to mean those 3 categories, yet "Late Buddhism" uses it so, I think we may consider that when we see the word 'ariya' in the suttas, we need not assume that it refers to enlightened people, i.e, at least a sotapanna. (Words do evolve in meaning, e.g., peta, vihara.)
                                                >
                                                >So, we need not translate ariya with that idea in mind. E.g. some translate 'ariyasaavaka' as 'disciple of the noble ones" seemingly with that idea in mind.
                                                >
                                                >kb
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >----------- --------- --------- -------
                                                >
                                                >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                                >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                                >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
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                                                >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. com
                                                >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
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