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Saddaniti Chapter 1 (1)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, here is my first monthly post on Saddaniiti. If you have not already seen, the project page is now available at
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 19, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      here is my first monthly post on Saddaniiti. If you have not already
      seen, the project page is now available at
      http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv. I shall begin
      with the first chapter, and invite you to review and discuss on what I
      post below. George, on the other hand, will be sharing with us
      passages from the second chapter.

      Padamaalaa
      pada (n) word. synonym: sadda.
      maalaa (f) garland.
      Padamaalaa: (lit.) An assortment of words.

      Chapter 1: Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga

      Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga ???

      sa-vi-kara.na (n) with-de-construction.
      aakhyaata [Sanskrit] (pp of aakhyaati) declared.
      vibhaaga (m) division.

      Tattha dhaatuu-ti ken-a.t.thena dhaatu?
      here / 'dhaatu' / by which meaning / dhaatu
      Here, 'dhaatu', by what meaning is dhaatu?

      dhaatu (f) element, principle.

      Sakattham-pi dhaaretii-ti dhaatu,
      own way - too / understands / dhaatu
      'Understands in one's own way' is dhaatu,


      metta,
      Yong Peng.
    • Jim Anderson
      Dear Yong Peng, Thank-you for your first contribution on Chapter 1. Since the Saddaniiti is of much interest to me, I ll be following closely the contributions
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 19, 2009
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        Dear Yong Peng,

        Thank-you for your first contribution on Chapter 1. Since the Saddaniiti is
        of much interest to me, I'll be following closely the contributions to the
        list on this text and hopefully I can be of some help. I think I'll be able
        to take on the Ganthaarambhakathaa (book-beginning-talk or introduction)
        since I have already started working on a translation of it (I'm now at
        verse 6 of 15). Here are some comments on some of the words in your text
        selection and translation:

        > Padamaalaa
        > pada (n) word. synonym: sadda.
        > maalaa (f) garland.
        > Padamaalaa: (lit.) An assortment of words.

        I think Padamaalaa is literally a garland of words which I have seen applied
        to the declensional paradigms and probably applies to the conjugational
        ones as well. It might even include other lists of words too such as lists
        of nouns and verbs derived from bhuu. What Dhaatumaalaa and Suttamaalaa
        refer to are more well-defined sets.

        > Chapter 1: Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga
        >
        > Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga ???

        Savikara.naakhyaata refers to verbs with their vikara.na affixes. As you
        will see further on, these are the affixes added directly to the verbal
        roots (dhaatus), such as 'a' added to 'bhuu' to form the verbal stem
        'bhava-' or 'e' added to 'dis' to form 'dese-' or 'desaya-' and to which the
        inflexional affixes are then added.

        > Sakattham-pi dhaaretii-ti dhaatu,
        > own way - too / understands / dhaatu
        > 'Understands in one's own way' is dhaatu,

        I would tentatively translate: 'it contains its own meaning' thus it is an
        element or verbal root. I will take a closer look at Chap. I when I'm
        finished with the introductory verses.

        Best wishes,
        Jim
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Yong Peng, Much appreciated you made this beginning of the Saddaniti. ... N: I read elsewhere: dhaatu bears its own meaning (or characteristic). Dhareti:
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 19, 2009
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          Dear Yong Peng,
          Much appreciated you made this beginning of the Saddaniti.
          Op 19-jan-2009, om 16:41 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

          > Sakattham-pi dhaaretii-ti dhaatu,
          > own way - too / understands / dhaatu
          > 'Understands in one's own way' is dhaatu,
          -------
          N: I read elsewhere: dhaatu bears its own meaning (or
          characteristic). Dhareti: bear.
          Visuddhimagga Ch XV, 21: <These, on the contrary, are elements
          (dhaatu) since they cause [a state's] own individual essence to be
          borne (dhaarenti).>
          Instead of individual essence I prefer: own characteristic.
          Dhaatu is close in meaning to dhamma.
          To illustrate this a little more: we read Vis. XV, 22: <Furthermore,
          'element' is a rerm for what is soulless, and for the purpose of
          abolishing the perception of soul the Blessed One accordingly taught
          the elements in such passages as 'Bhikkhu, this man has six
          elements' (M.III, 239) >
          I hope Jim and others also have further suggestions.
          Nina.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • gdbedell
          Yong Peng, Jim, Nina and all, ... ,
Jim: it contains its own meaning I would suggest: A root is what has meaning by itself. This is the first of
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 20, 2009
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            Yong Peng, Jim, Nina and all,

            I think Jim's interpretation of the pariccheda 1 title is correct. For the line:

            > Sakattham-pi dhaaretii-ti dhaatu,

            > own way - too / understands / dhaatu

            > 'Understands in one's own way' is dhaatu
            ,
Jim: 'it contains its own meaning'

            I would suggest:

            A 'root' is what has meaning by itself.

            This is the first of several definitions of the term dhaatu. One question (which I don't
            know how to answer) is whether the definitions are intended to identify different senses of
            dhaatu, or whether they are to be understood as (together) defining a single notion.

            My suggestion assumes that as the first definition, this one offers the most relevant
            meaning or perspective. That is, it is the linguistic notion of 'root' which is being specified
            here. The idea of 'having meaning by itself' is in contrast to those elements of language
            (vikara.na and vibhatti, or suffixes) which convey meaning only in combination with roots.
            This approach is consistent with some modern ideas that contrast 'lexical items' which are
            listed in a dictionary with their respective definitions, and 'grammatical items' which are
            not listed in a dictionary but given (either as rules or paradigms) in a grammar. By
            incorporating a dhaatumaalaa as well as padamaalaa, Aggava.msa has provided both a
            dictionary and a grammar (in the modern sense).

            George
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear George, Thank you. This makes sense to me. When we learn the roots or stems of the verbs, we get already their meaning. Thus, they bear or contain their
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 20, 2009
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              Dear George,
              Thank you. This makes sense to me. When we learn the roots or stems
              of the verbs, we get already their meaning. Thus, they bear or
              contain their own meaning.
              Nina.
              Op 20-jan-2009, om 11:48 heeft gdbedell het volgende geschreven:

              > That is, it is the linguistic notion of 'root' which is being
              > specified
              > here. The idea of 'having meaning by itself' is in contrast to
              > those elements of language
              > (vikara.na and vibhatti, or suffixes) which convey meaning only in
              > combination with roots.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear George, ... has (also possesses ) for dhaareti sounds good. Nina s bears is fine too. I also think carries could be another possibility. I m not
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 21, 2009
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                Dear George,

                > Yong Peng, Jim, Nina and all,
                >
                > I think Jim's interpretation of the pariccheda 1 title is correct. For
                > the line:
                >
                >> Sakattham-pi dhaaretii-ti dhaatu,

                >> own way - too / understands / dhaatu

                >> 'Understands in one's own way' is dhaatu
                > ,
Jim: 'it contains its own meaning'
                >
                > I would suggest:
                >
                > A 'root' is what has meaning by itself.

                'has' (also 'possesses') for 'dhaareti' sounds good. Nina's 'bears' is fine
                too. I also think 'carries' could be another possibility. I'm not so sure
                about your 'meaning by itself ' for 'sakattha.m'. The first definition is
                paired with the second one which has 'parattha.m' and this might pose a
                problem if you translate it (in keeping with the former) as 'meaning by
                another'. For my own translation, I would change 'contains' to 'has',
                'possesses', 'carries', or 'bears' and stick with 'its own meaning'. Another
                possibility might be 'a meaning of its own'.

                > This is the first of several definitions of the term dhaatu. One question
                > (which I don't
                > know how to answer) is whether the definitions are intended to identify
                > different senses of
                > dhaatu, or whether they are to be understood as (together) defining a
                > single notion.

                I'm inclined to go with the latter. Each of the five definitions has a 'pi'
                either within the definition or just outside so I would think they should be
                taken together in understanding how the linguistic term is applied. It
                doesn't try to define all the senses which would include bone, the four
                great elements, the 18 elements, metals, etc. although bone and metals are
                alluded to in the explanation. Interestingly, Kacc 671 has: "attha.m
                dhaaretiiti dhaatu, gamanapacanaadika.m kriya.m dhaaretiiti vaa dhaatu."

                I think that in reading 'bhuu sattaaya.m' on p. 4, sattaa (being, existing)
                is the 'sakattha' of the root 'bhuu' but it can have another meaning
                (parattha) like 'va.d.dhane' (increase, growth) which I came across in the
                4th pariccheda (p. 29). I still need to learn more about how 'dhaatu' is
                used and Aggava.msa's five definitions is a good place to start.

                Jim
              • flrobert2000
                Dear all, I asked Venerable U Nandamaalaabhiva.msa for some clarification and what he told me is very similar to Jim s explanations. Dhaatu has the meaning of
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 25, 2009
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                  Dear all,

                  I asked Venerable U Nandamaalaabhiva.msa for some clarification and
                  what he told me is very similar to Jim's explanations. Dhaatu has the
                  meaning of root indeed.
                  So the questioon could be "In what sense (or in which sense)
                  is "dhaatu" called "dhaatu"". And the answer "A root is what bears
                  its own meaning."

                  If we take gacchati (gamu + a + ti) for example, a is paccaya
                  (conjugational sign), 'ti' is aakhyaatavibhatti and has the three
                  meanings of tense (present), person (third person) and number
                  (plural), and gamu just bears its own meaning 'go' or 'to go'.

                  He also mentioned that he recently compiled and published a
                  reorganized version of the of the dhaatumaalaa part of the Saddaniiti
                  (in Burmese script) according to the alphabetical order. He gave the
                  title of Dhaatudiipaka (explanation or clarification of dhaatu) and I
                  suppose it would be quite easy to transcribe it in roman characters.

                  The Saddaniiti is still very much studied in Myanmar and until not
                  such a long time ago the late Venerable U Silananda was teaching it
                  in the United States along with the Padaruupasiddhi. There is
                  actually a quite interesting e-book called Paa.li roots which was
                  written by U Silananda and his assistant U Nandisena (the Argentinian
                  monk who also translated the Kaccayana in English as mentioned in an
                  earlier post) and which is available in this group's files. The full
                  title is "Pali Roots in Saddaniiti Dhaatu-Maalaa compared with
                  Paa.niniiya-Dhaatupaa.tha" and gives the meaning of the roots in
                  English, Spanish and Sanskrit.


                  Lastly I would like to quote Mabel Bode's invaluable book, "The Pali
                  litterature of Burma", pp16-17:

                  "During the reigns of Anorata's [the Burmese king who forcefully
                  brought Theravada Buddhism to Burma from the Talaing or Mon kingdom]
                  immediate successors learning took firm root at Pagan, and in the
                  year 1154 the monk Aggava.msa completed the Saddaniiti, a grammar of
                  the Tipi.taka, described as 'the most comprehensive in existence' [by
                  Charles Duroiselle]. It established the reputation of Burmese
                  scholarship in that age and the fame of the author to the present
                  day, for the Saddaniiti is still republished in Burma as a classic.
                  [...].
                  Aggava.msa was tutor to King Narapatisithu (AD 1167-1202), a powerful
                  and peacable monarch, whose reign was the most prosperous epoch in
                  the history of the kingdom of Pagan. According to the Gandhava.msa,
                  Aggava.msa was of Jambudiipa [actually the Burmese sometimes include
                  Burma or Aparanta, into India or Jambudiipa]. Forchhammer mentions
                  him among the famous residents in the retired monastery on the
                  Northern plateau above Pagan, 'the cradle of Pali-Burmese literature.'
                  The Saddaniiti was the first return gift of Burma to Ceylon. A few
                  years after its completion the thera Uttaraajiiva left Pagan and
                  crossed the sea to visit the celebrated Mahaavihaara, taking with him
                  a copy of the Saddaniiti, which was received with enthusiastic
                  admiration, and declared superior to any work of the kind written by
                  Sinhalese scholars."

                  Regards,

                  Florent
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Florent, Thank you for the quote about the history in Burma, very interesting that the Saddaniti is widely known. ... N: I have been thinking about
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 25, 2009
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                    Dear Florent,
                    Thank you for the quote about the history in Burma, very interesting
                    that the Saddaniti is widely known.
                    Op 26-jan-2009, om 3:54 heeft flrobert2000 het volgende geschreven:

                    > So the questioon could be "In what sense (or in which sense)
                    > is "dhaatu" called "dhaatu"". And the answer "A root is what bears
                    > its own meaning."
                    >
                    > If we take gacchati (gamu + a + ti) for example, a is paccaya
                    > (conjugational sign), 'ti' is aakhyaatavibhatti and has the three
                    > meanings of tense (present), person (third person) and number
                    > (plural), and gamu just bears its own meaning 'go' or 'to go'.
                    -------
                    N: I have been thinking about dhaatu. The root of the verb gives the
                    meaning, and it is the smallest unit that cannot be analysed further,
                    thus it is like an element. Perhaps that is the reason why the verbal
                    root is called an element? As you explain, in addition there are
                    suffixes etc, that give more meanings, tense, etc.
                    I looked in the files: verbal stems, but I do not quite know what to
                    do, it looks very complicated. This is for further study of the
                    Saddaniti, I think.
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • flrobert2000
                    ... Dear Nina, I just realised that for soem reason this book (a pdf file) is not in the file section. I will try to upload it right now. Regards, Florent
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                      > I looked in the files: verbal stems, but I do not quite know what to
                      > do, it looks very complicated. This is for further study of the
                      > Saddaniti, I think.
                      > Nina.
                      >
                      Dear Nina,

                      I just realised that for soem reason this book (a pdf file) is not in
                      the file section. I will try to upload it right now.

                      Regards,

                      Florent
                    • Peter Bowen
                      ... Florent: Many thanks for uploading the book. It looks quite interesting, though well beyond me at this stage. I did however benefit from its introduction
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                        2009/1/26 flrobert2000 <flrobert2000@...>:
                        > Dear Nina,
                        >
                        > I just realised that for soem reason this book (a pdf file) is not in
                        > the file section. I will try to upload it right now.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Florent

                        Florent:

                        Many thanks for uploading the book. It looks quite interesting, though
                        well beyond me at this stage. I did however benefit from its
                        introduction to the _Saddiniiti_ . This enabled me to understand what
                        is the book is all about.

                        One question, though:

                        What is a "CONJUGATIONAL SIGN (VIKARAÄA)", and how/when is it used?

                        Thank you.

                        With metta,
                        Peter
                      • gdbedell
                        Peter, Jim Anderson succinctly answered this question about a week ago (1/20): Savikara.naakhyaata refers to verbs with their vikara.na affixes. As you will
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                          Peter,

                          Jim Anderson succinctly answered this question about a week ago (1/20):

                          Savikara.naakhyaata refers to verbs with their vikara.na affixes. As you
                          will see further on, these are the affixes added directly to the verbal
                          roots (dhaatus), such as 'a' added to 'bhuu' to form the verbal stem
                          'bhava-' or 'e' added to 'dis' to form 'dese-' or 'desaya-' and to which the
                          inflexional affixes are then added.

                          George B

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bowen <pjbowen@...> wrote:

                          > One question, though:
                          >
                          > What is a "CONJUGATIONAL SIGN (VIKARAÄA)", and how/when is it used?
                          >
                          > Thank you.
                          >
                          > With metta,
                          > Peter
                          >
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Florent, thank you very much. I started reading it. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                            Dear Florent,
                            thank you very much. I started reading it.
                            Nina.
                            Op 26-jan-2009, om 12:35 heeft flrobert2000 het volgende geschreven:

                            > I just realised that for soem reason this book (a pdf file) is not in
                            > the file section. I will try to upload it right now.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Peter Bowen
                            George: Thank you for pointing this out. I must have missed Jim s post, for which I apologise. With metta, Peter
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                              George:

                              Thank you for pointing this out. I must have missed Jim's post, for
                              which I apologise.

                              With metta,
                              Peter

                              2009/1/26 gdbedell <gdbedell@...>:
                              > Peter,
                              >
                              > Jim Anderson succinctly answered this question about a week ago (1/20):
                              >
                              > Savikara.naakhyaata refers to verbs with their vikara.na affixes. As you
                              > will see further on, these are the affixes added directly to the verbal
                              > roots (dhaatus), such as 'a' added to 'bhuu' to form the verbal stem
                              > 'bhava-' or 'e' added to 'dis' to form 'dese-' or 'desaya-' and to which the
                              > inflexional affixes are then added.
                              >
                              > George B
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bowen <pjbowen@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> One question, though:
                              >>
                              >> What is a "CONJUGATIONAL SIGN (VIKARAÄA)", and how/when is it used?
                              >>
                              >> Thank you.
                              >>
                              >> With metta,
                              >> Peter
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                            • Piya Tan
                              Thankas, Florent, for the download, the Pali Roots (U SIlananda) woll be a very helpful too for those working with Pali. With metta, Piya Tan ... -- The
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 26, 2009
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                                Thankas, Florent,

                                for the download, the "Pali Roots" (U SIlananda) woll be a very
                                helpful too for those working with Pali.


                                With metta,

                                Piya Tan


                                On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:35 PM, flrobert2000 <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> I looked in the files: verbal stems, but I do not quite know what to
                                >> do, it looks very complicated. This is for further study of the
                                >> Saddaniti, I think.
                                >> Nina.
                                >>
                                > Dear Nina,
                                >
                                > I just realised that for soem reason this book (a pdf file) is not in
                                > the file section. I will try to upload it right now.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Florent
                                >
                                >



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