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Re: Pali Study Series H: Saddaniiti (Saddaniti) - Padamaalaa Pre-Start

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  • gdbedell
    Yong Peng, Jim and others, I don t have strong feelings about the best way to organize our efforts, other than that we should avoid wasting energy by two or
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2009
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      Yong Peng, Jim and others,

      I don't have strong feelings about the best way to organize our efforts, other than that we
      should avoid wasting energy by two or more of us doing the same thing. For my part, I
      am willing to continue what I started with pariccheda 2. I would be hesitant to commit to
      any schedule, because how fast I can go depends on unpredictable factors such as the
      difficulty of the text, how much time I have, and so on. (I will be away from home for
      about three weeks of the next five). I chose pariccheda 2 because the opening section
      seemed comprehensible, and because I thought somebody should do something to get an
      interaction started. Personally, I find first order presentation of Paali grammar not too
      difficult, since I know Paali grammar already and have some experience with Indian ideas.
      I stopped where I did because the next passage is a definition of 'vibhatti' (I think Jim is
      already looking at it). I find such definitions, which do not appeal directly to the language,
      much harder going.

      I am not unhappy with Yong Peng's statement: 'the principle outcome of this study is the
      learnings for each participating member, everything else being secondary.' But i think we
      should keep in mind that not all of us are at the same level. Though I suggested at one
      point that maybe there are expectations which are not realistic, I also think each of us
      should make a special effort to clarify our own ideas as well as those of Aggava.msa.

      I see no need for Yong Peng do Velthuis conversion; anyone can do it, and I am now
      convinced of the need. I would welcome any information Jim can provide about the
      contents of the 14 paricchedas.

      George

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Yong Peng,
      >
      > I have no idea what would be the best approach for working through the 14
      > chapters of the Padamaalaa on the list. Personally, I prefer a less
      > structured approach in contrast to the more structured and systematic one
      > you're suggesting where a participating member commits to taking on a whole
      > chapter which can range anywhere from less than 10 to about 50 pages. For
      > personal reasons, I don't wish to take on a whole chapter at this time but
      > am willing to contribute in small ways to the discussions on the Saddaniiti.
      >
      > It would be helpful to put together a detailed summary of the contents of
      > the Padamaalaa. In Smith's edition, there is no table of contents given at
      > the beginning. I have a list of 28 chapter headings of the entire Saddaniiti
      > that I put together many years ago. However, I think it's also important
      > that the chapters be further divided into smaller sections for a more
      > detailed table of contents. I have done some work on this but much more
      > still needs to be done.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Ong Yong Peng" <palismith@...>
      > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 3:52 AM
      > Subject: [Pali] Pali Study Series H: Saddaniiti (Saddaniti) - Padamaalaa
      > Pre-Start
      >
      >
      > > Dear Nina, Jim, George, Mahinda and friends,
      > >
      > > this is to continue the discussion from a previous post:
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/13130
      > >
      > > We will have to iron out a plan for the study of Saddaniiti
      > > (Saddaniti). So far, we have already seen Jim and George posted on
      > > this classical text of Pali grammar, which we shall regard as part of
      > > the series.
      > >
      > > We have agreed that the study shall be conducted at an appropriately
      > > slow pace, given the anticipated difficulty of the text. This is
      > > possible by reviewing the text in small portions. The principle
      > > outcome of this study is the learnings for each participating member,
      > > everything else being secondary. As it goes with an European (Dutch?)
      > > saying, "it is not how much we cover, but how much we uncover". So,
      > > the main objective is on discovery and learning from the text - a
      > > focus on quality.
      > >
      > > In earlier discussions, we had a brief look at the available
      > > references for this study. I will summarise and provide these and
      > > other background information on a project page to be set up on
      > > tipitaka.net.
      > >
      > > The main source of the text is tipitaka.org. Pali passages and terms
      > > are best to be in Velthuis encoding. The reasons have been discussed
      > > on this list and summarised here:
      > > http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/page01.htm I have the required tools
      > > to easily convert Unicode on tipitaka.org into Velthuis we can use,
      > > and I am happy to provide the Velthuis text to anyone participating in
      > > the study, and save you time in typing and editing.
      > >
      > > The methodology of study remains to be discussed. We have so far
      > > agreed that each posting should contain no more than a small portion
      > > of the original Pali text. I suggest that each posting to include the
      > > following as minimum:
      > >
      > > 1. a line-by-line English translation of the original Pali
      > > 2. discussion and commentary by the poster to summarise the contents,
      > > and highlight any difficult words for discussion
      > >
      > > Further, each posting shall only deal with 10% or less of any of the
      > > Pali chapters.
      > >
      > > Work can be divided among ourselves in one of many possible ways, but
      > > we have to decide on one method to get started. I would just discuss
      > > two possible methods, but better suggestions are welcomed.
      > >
      > > (a) round-robin: I used this with Nina for the translation of MN62:
      > > Maharahulovada Sutta. We took turn to translate a portion of the sutta.
      > >
      > > For Padamaalaa, we can work out a queue order, and each person on the
      > > queue takes turn to post on a section of the text.
      > >
      > > (b) batching: I used this with Florent for the exercises in The New
      > > Pali Course Part II. Basically, Florent posts solutions for the Pali
      > > sentences, while I post solutions for the English ones. In addition,
      > > we modified the process to match the book's organisation.
      > >
      > > For Padamaalaa, each participant can be tasked one of the fourteen
      > > chapters, and then post on a regular basis the results of his study
      > > for group discussion. Note, technically, we have to work on the
      > > earlier chapters first.
      > >
      > > I think (b) is a better method for this case, but I like to hear your
      > > opinions before we make a decision together.
      > >
      > > Documentation will be provided, initially, via a project page, to be
      > > set up on tipitaka.net, with links to postings. This will be expanded
      > > in the future to include complete translations and commentaries by
      > > members.
      > >
      > >
      > > metta,
      > > Yong Peng.
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
      > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
      > > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
      > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
      > > web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Jim Anderson
      Dear George, ... Here s a list of the 14 paricchedas in the Padamaalaa (based on H. Smith s edn.): I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314) 1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga 1
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2009
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        Dear George,

        > I would welcome any information Jim can provide about the
        > contents of the 14 paricchedas.

        Here's a list of the 14 paricchedas in the Padamaalaa (based on H. Smith's
        edn.):

        I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314)

        1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaaga 1 [page number]
        2. Bhavatikiriyaapadamaalaavibhaaga 13
        3. Paki.n.nakavinicchaya 30
        4. Bhuudhaatumayanaamikaruupavibhaaga 59
        5. Okaarantapulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 87
        6. AAkaarantapulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 137
        7. Niggahiitantaadipulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 167
        8. Itthili"nganaamikapadamaalaa 197
        9. Napu.msakali"n"nganaamikapadamaalaa 226
        10. Li"ngattayamissakanaamikapadamaalaa 235
        11. Vaaccaabhidheyyali"ngaadiparidiipananaamikapadamaalaa 246
        12. Sabbanaama-ta.msadisanaama-naamikapadamaalaa 266
        13. Savinicchayasa"nkhyaanaamanaamikapadamaalaa 296
        14. Atthattikavibhaaga 308

        The following is from rough notes I made a long time ago of the contents of
        each of the 14 paricchedas. I include here the ones for the first 5
        paricchedas which is all I have typed on the computer so far. The original
        notes and the first two volumes of my copy of Smith's edition are in a
        frozen state at the cottage.

        I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314)

        1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaago naama pa.thamo paricchedo. 1-13

        ganthaarambhakathaa (15 gaathaa-s) 1
        dhaatu 2,5
        vikara.napaccaya-s 2,23
        1. bhuu sattaaya.m 3,26... 314,6
        sakammikaakammika dhaatu-s 3,26
        suddhakattukiriyaapada (simple agent): uddesa 3,32; niddesa 4,19
        hetukattukiriyaapada (causative): uddesa 5,18; niddesa 5,24
        kammakiriyaapada (passive): uddesa 6,19; niddesa 6,25 (incl.
        kammakattukiriyaapada)
        bhaavassa kiriyaapada (impersonal): uddesa 7,24; niddesa 7,26
        tikaaraka 10,7
        bhavatissa dhaatussa vinicchayo 11,25

        2. Bhavatikiriyaapadamaalaavibhaaga 13

        gaathaa
        vibhatti 13,29
        vibhatti avibhattikaniddeso 15,6
        parassapadaani attanopadaani 16,5
        ekavacana bahuvacana 16,24
        kaalakaarakapurisaparidiipanataa 20,32
        kiriyaalakkha.na.m 24,30
        kaalesu vibhattippavatti 25,11
        kiriyaapadamaalaa 25,24

        3. Paki.n.nakavinicchaya 30

        navadhaa vinicchayo:

        samaanasutikapadaanam atthuddhaara.na.m 31,6
        atthasaddacintaa 34,26
        atthaatisayayogo 45,1
        samaanaasamaanavasena vacanasa"ngaho 45,8
        aagamalakkha.navasena vibhattivacanasa"ngaho 48,24
        kaalavasena vibhattivacanasa"ngaho 49,23
        kaalasa"ngaho 50,10
        pakara.nasa.msandanaa 55,30
        vattamaanaadiina.m vacanatthavibhaavanaa 58,16

        4. Bhuudhaatumayanaamikaruupavibhaaga [59,26-87,22: 29pp]

        gaathaa (15 verses): vibhattis 59,27 naama li"nga
        niruttilakkha.na.m 60,26
        pulli"ngaadivasena li"ngattaya.m bhuudhaatumayam uddi.t.tha.m 61,10-63,33
        purisali"ngavasena udaahara.nuddeso 61,10
        itthili"ngavasena udaahara.nuddeso 62,23
        nampu.msakali"ngavasena udaahara.nuddeso 63,10
        bheda verses 63,34
        li"ngattaye niddeso 64,9-87,13
        pulli"nganiddeso 64,9
        nibbacanaabhidheyyakathanatthasaadhakavacana-
        pariyaayavacanatthuddhaara 64,9
        itthili"nganiddeso 81,9
        napu.msali"nganiddeso 84,29
        2 verses 87,14

        5. Okaarantapulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 87

        5.1 purisanaya 87,30; bho 89,20
        bahuvacana.m puthuvacana.m anekavacana.m 92.7
        there is no dvivacana.m (dual) in the saasana 92,10
        bhuuto 93,33
        buddho, etc. 94,11 orodho maatugaamo 95,1; vinicchayo 98,16
        5.2 manoga.na (so.lasa) 99,17
        mano 100,5; saro 103,29; vayo 104,9; ceto 104,15;
        (incomplete)

        Best wishes,
        Jim
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear George, Jim and all, thanks for your replies. For an open study group like us, we have a good degree of flexibility. Members can participate in the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 3, 2009
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          Dear George, Jim and all,

          thanks for your replies. For an open study group like us, we have a
          good degree of flexibility. Members can participate in the discussions
          in the way which best fit their schedules. I am glad that George will
          continue with pariccheda 2, at his own pace. In the meantime, I shall
          go on with setting up the project page on tipitaka.net, and shall
          notify you when it is ready.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, gdbedell wrote:

          I don't have strong feelings about the best way to organize our
          efforts, other than that we should avoid wasting energy by two or more
          of us doing the same thing. For my part, I am willing to continue
          what I started with pariccheda 2. I would be hesitant to commit to
          any schedule, because how fast I can go depends on unpredictable
          factors such as the difficulty of the text, how much time I have, and
          so on.

          > Personally, I prefer a less structured approach in contrast to
          > the more structured and systematic one you're suggesting where
          > a participating member commits to taking on a whole chapter which
          > can range anywhere from less than 10 to about 50 pages. For personal
          > reasons, I don't wish to take on a whole chapter at this time but
          > am willing to contribute in small ways to the discussions on the
          > Saddaniiti.
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Jim and friends, thanks for providing the detailed contents of the text for the first two sections. I have a look at the CS-edition on tipitaka.org, and
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 4, 2009
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            Dear Jim and friends,

            thanks for providing the detailed contents of the text for the first
            two sections. I have a look at the CS-edition on tipitaka.org, and
            there is just the main headings of the 14 sections. I am sure the
            page/line number you have included would be handy for cross-references
            to Smith's edition.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

            > I would welcome any information Jim can provide about the
            > contents of the 14 paricchedas.

            I include here the ones for the first 5 paricchedas which is all I
            have typed on the computer so far.

            I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314)

            1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaago naama pa.thamo paricchedo. 1-13

            ganthaarambhakathaa (15 gaathaa-s) 1
            dhaatu 2,5
            vikara.napaccaya-s 2,23
            1. bhuu sattaaya.m 3,26... 314,6
            sakammikaakammika dhaatu-s 3,26
            suddhakattukiriyaapada (simple agent): uddesa 3,32; niddesa 4,19
            hetukattukiriyaapada (causative): uddesa 5,18; niddesa 5,24
            kammakiriyaapada (passive): uddesa 6,19; niddesa 6,25 (incl.
            kammakattukiriyaapada)
            bhaavassa kiriyaapada (impersonal): uddesa 7,24; niddesa 7,26
            tikaaraka 10,7
            bhavatissa dhaatussa vinicchayo 11,25

            2. Bhavatikiriyaapadamaalaavibhaaga 13

            gaathaa
            vibhatti 13,29
            vibhatti avibhattikaniddeso 15,6
            parassapadaani attanopadaani 16,5
            ekavacana bahuvacana 16,24
            kaalakaarakapurisaparidiipanataa 20,32
            kiriyaalakkha.na.m 24,30
            kaalesu vibhattippavatti 25,11
            kiriyaapadamaalaa 25,24
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