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Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse

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  • Stephen Hodge
    Dear Piya, Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
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      Dear Piya,

      Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
      should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
      preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
      Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:

      諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
      猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫


      Best wishes,
      Stephen Hodge


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse


      Stephen,

      This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):

      Sabbe sattā marissanti,
      maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
      Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
      puññapāpaphalūpagā;
      Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
      puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.

      Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
      nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
      Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
      patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.

      (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)

      If the Pali does not work, let me know.

      Piya Tan


      On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
      s.hodge@...> wrote:

      > Dear Palistas,
      >
      > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
      > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
      > about
      > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
      > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
      > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
      >
      > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their impermanent
      > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people (puthajjanas)
      > !"
      >
      > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
      > Bear
      >
      > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
      > Pasenadi
      > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
      > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Stephen Hodge
      >
      >
      >



      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      Tel: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      ------------------------------------

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      Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
      [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
      [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
      [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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    • Piya Tan
      sDear Stephen, The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
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        sDear Stephen,

        The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times
        when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably interpolated
        their own verses (perhaps from some other texts) that they thought reflected
        the Chinese mind better.

        John Brough has shown how sometimes when the translators are faced with a
        very difficult passage, they would simply interpolate wholesale a passage
        from a familiar work with similar inital words!

        At the moment I'm not sure where the Chinese translators got their verse.
        Have you checked with Bucknell's Pali-Chinese Sutra Correspondence to locate
        the cogant suttas?

        With best wishes,

        Piya Tan


        On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Stephen Hodge <
        s.hodge@...> wrote:

        > Dear Piya,
        >
        > Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
        > should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
        > preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
        > Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:
        >
        > 諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
        > 猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Stephen Hodge
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
        > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
        > Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse
        >
        > Stephen,
        >
        > This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):
        >
        > Sabbe sattā marissanti,
        > maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
        > Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
        > puññapāpaphalūpagā;
        > Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
        > puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.
        >
        > Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
        > nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
        > Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
        > patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.
        >
        > (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)
        >
        > If the Pali does not work, let me know.
        >
        > Piya Tan
        >
        > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
        > s.hodge@... <s.hodge%40padmacholing.plus.com>> wrote:
        >
        > > Dear Palistas,
        > >
        > > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
        > > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
        > > about
        > > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
        > > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
        > > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
        > >
        > > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their
        > impermanent
        > > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people
        > (puthajjanas)
        > > !"
        > >
        > > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
        > > Bear
        > >
        > > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
        > > Pasenadi
        > > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
        > > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Stephen Hodge
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > The Minding Centre
        > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        > Singapore 650644
        > Tel: 8211 0879
        > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
        > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
        > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
        >
        > only.Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >



        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stephen Hodge
        Dear Piya, Thanks for your general comments ~ yes, I am aware of the flexibility / ingenuity of the translators into Chinese. But the text I am looking at is
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Piya,

          Thanks for your general comments ~ yes, I am aware of the flexibility /
          ingenuity of the translators into Chinese. But the text I am looking at is
          a Mahayana sutra which quotes a good number of verses which are *all*
          authentic ~ I have traced them either to the Udaana-varga (Skt) [=
          Dhammapada] or to one or other of the Khuddaka compilations, with just two
          or three exceptions. Contextually, I am convinced that this verse must have
          been found in one of the early canonical sources ~ but as I mentioned, this
          Mahayana sutra is clearly Mahasanghika affiliated and not enough of their
          specific material has survived. But thanks for your thoughts ~ it was a
          long shot anyway !

          best wishes,
          Stephen Hodge


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...>
          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:25 PM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse


          sDear Stephen,

          The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times
          when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably interpolated
          their own verses (perhaps from some other texts) that they thought reflected
          the Chinese mind better.

          John Brough has shown how sometimes when the translators are faced with a
          very difficult passage, they would simply interpolate wholesale a passage
          from a familiar work with similar inital words!

          At the moment I'm not sure where the Chinese translators got their verse.
          Have you checked with Bucknell's Pali-Chinese Sutra Correspondence to locate
          the cogant suttas?

          With best wishes,

          Piya Tan


          On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Stephen Hodge <
          s.hodge@...> wrote:

          > Dear Piya,
          >
          > Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
          > should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
          > preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
          > Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:
          >
          > 諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
          > 猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Stephen Hodge
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
          > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
          > Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse
          >
          > Stephen,
          >
          > This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):
          >
          > Sabbe sattā marissanti,
          > maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
          > Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
          > puññapāpaphalūpagā;
          > Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
          > puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.
          >
          > Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
          > nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
          > Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
          > patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.
          >
          > (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)
          >
          > If the Pali does not work, let me know.
          >
          > Piya Tan
          >
          > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
          > s.hodge@... <s.hodge%40padmacholing.plus.com>> wrote:
          >
          > > Dear Palistas,
          > >
          > > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
          > > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
          > > about
          > > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
          > > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
          > > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
          > >
          > > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their
          > impermanent
          > > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people
          > (puthajjanas)
          > > !"
          > >
          > > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
          > > Bear
          > >
          > > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
          > > Pasenadi
          > > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
          > > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Stephen Hodge
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > The Minding Centre
          > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          > Singapore 650644
          > Tel: 8211 0879
          > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
          > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
          > web
          >
          > only.Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >



          --
          The Minding Centre
          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          Singapore 650644
          Tel: 8211 0879
          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
          Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          ------------------------------------

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
          only.Yahoo! Groups Links
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