Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Pasenadi verse

Expand Messages
  • Stephen Hodge
    Dear Palistas, I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 11, 2008
      Dear Palistas,

      I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
      certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha about
      the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
      heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
      grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:

      "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their impermanent
      bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people (puthajjanas)
      !"

      Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ? Bear
      in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with Pasenadi
      in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
      readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.

      Thanks,
      Stephen Hodge
    • Piya Tan
      Stephen, This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta): Sabbe sattā marissanti, maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ; Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 11, 2008
        Stephen,

        This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):

        Sabbe sattā marissanti,
        maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
        Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
        puññapāpaphalūpagā;
        Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
        puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.

        Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
        nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
        Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
        patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.

        (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)

        If the Pali does not work, let me know.

        Piya Tan


        On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
        s.hodge@...> wrote:

        > Dear Palistas,
        >
        > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
        > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
        > about
        > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
        > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
        > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
        >
        > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their impermanent
        > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people (puthajjanas)
        > !"
        >
        > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ? Bear
        >
        > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
        > Pasenadi
        > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
        > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Stephen Hodge
        >
        >
        >



        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stephen Hodge
        Dear Piya, Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
          Dear Piya,

          Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
          should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
          preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
          Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:

          諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
          猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫


          Best wishes,
          Stephen Hodge


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...>
          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse


          Stephen,

          This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):

          Sabbe sattā marissanti,
          maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
          Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
          puññapāpaphalūpagā;
          Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
          puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.

          Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
          nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
          Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
          patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.

          (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)

          If the Pali does not work, let me know.

          Piya Tan


          On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
          s.hodge@...> wrote:

          > Dear Palistas,
          >
          > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
          > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
          > about
          > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
          > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
          > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
          >
          > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their impermanent
          > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people (puthajjanas)
          > !"
          >
          > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
          > Bear
          >
          > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
          > Pasenadi
          > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
          > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Stephen Hodge
          >
          >
          >



          --
          The Minding Centre
          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          Singapore 650644
          Tel: 8211 0879
          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
          Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          ------------------------------------

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
          only.Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Piya Tan
          sDear Stephen, The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
            sDear Stephen,

            The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times
            when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably interpolated
            their own verses (perhaps from some other texts) that they thought reflected
            the Chinese mind better.

            John Brough has shown how sometimes when the translators are faced with a
            very difficult passage, they would simply interpolate wholesale a passage
            from a familiar work with similar inital words!

            At the moment I'm not sure where the Chinese translators got their verse.
            Have you checked with Bucknell's Pali-Chinese Sutra Correspondence to locate
            the cogant suttas?

            With best wishes,

            Piya Tan


            On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Stephen Hodge <
            s.hodge@...> wrote:

            > Dear Piya,
            >
            > Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
            > should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
            > preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
            > Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:
            >
            > 諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
            > 猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Stephen Hodge
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
            > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse
            >
            > Stephen,
            >
            > This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):
            >
            > Sabbe sattā marissanti,
            > maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
            > Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
            > puññapāpaphalūpagā;
            > Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
            > puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.
            >
            > Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
            > nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
            > Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
            > patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.
            >
            > (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)
            >
            > If the Pali does not work, let me know.
            >
            > Piya Tan
            >
            > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
            > s.hodge@... <s.hodge%40padmacholing.plus.com>> wrote:
            >
            > > Dear Palistas,
            > >
            > > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
            > > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
            > > about
            > > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
            > > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
            > > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
            > >
            > > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their
            > impermanent
            > > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people
            > (puthajjanas)
            > > !"
            > >
            > > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
            > > Bear
            > >
            > > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
            > > Pasenadi
            > > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
            > > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Stephen Hodge
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > The Minding Centre
            > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            > Singapore 650644
            > Tel: 8211 0879
            > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
            > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
            > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
            > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
            >
            > only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >



            --
            The Minding Centre
            Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            Singapore 650644
            Tel: 8211 0879
            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
            Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephen Hodge
            Dear Piya, Thanks for your general comments ~ yes, I am aware of the flexibility / ingenuity of the translators into Chinese. But the text I am looking at is
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 12, 2008
              Dear Piya,

              Thanks for your general comments ~ yes, I am aware of the flexibility /
              ingenuity of the translators into Chinese. But the text I am looking at is
              a Mahayana sutra which quotes a good number of verses which are *all*
              authentic ~ I have traced them either to the Udaana-varga (Skt) [=
              Dhammapada] or to one or other of the Khuddaka compilations, with just two
              or three exceptions. Contextually, I am convinced that this verse must have
              been found in one of the early canonical sources ~ but as I mentioned, this
              Mahayana sutra is clearly Mahasanghika affiliated and not enough of their
              specific material has survived. But thanks for your thoughts ~ it was a
              long shot anyway !

              best wishes,
              Stephen Hodge


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...>
              To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:25 PM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse


              sDear Stephen,

              The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times
              when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably interpolated
              their own verses (perhaps from some other texts) that they thought reflected
              the Chinese mind better.

              John Brough has shown how sometimes when the translators are faced with a
              very difficult passage, they would simply interpolate wholesale a passage
              from a familiar work with similar inital words!

              At the moment I'm not sure where the Chinese translators got their verse.
              Have you checked with Bucknell's Pali-Chinese Sutra Correspondence to locate
              the cogant suttas?

              With best wishes,

              Piya Tan


              On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Stephen Hodge <
              s.hodge@...> wrote:

              > Dear Piya,
              >
              > Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
              > should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
              > preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
              > Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:
              >
              > 諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
              > 猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Stephen Hodge
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
              > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse
              >
              > Stephen,
              >
              > This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):
              >
              > Sabbe sattā marissanti,
              > maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
              > Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
              > puññapāpaphalūpagā;
              > Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
              > puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.
              >
              > Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
              > nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
              > Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
              > patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.
              >
              > (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)
              >
              > If the Pali does not work, let me know.
              >
              > Piya Tan
              >
              > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
              > s.hodge@... <s.hodge%40padmacholing.plus.com>> wrote:
              >
              > > Dear Palistas,
              > >
              > > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
              > > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
              > > about
              > > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
              > > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
              > > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
              > >
              > > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their
              > impermanent
              > > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people
              > (puthajjanas)
              > > !"
              > >
              > > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
              > > Bear
              > >
              > > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
              > > Pasenadi
              > > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
              > > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Stephen Hodge
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > The Minding Centre
              > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
              > Singapore 650644
              > Tel: 8211 0879
              > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
              > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
              > web
              >
              > only.Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >



              --
              The Minding Centre
              Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
              Singapore 650644
              Tel: 8211 0879
              Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
              Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              ------------------------------------

              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
              only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.