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Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • thomaslaw03
    Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
      Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

      Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
      support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
      you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
      refer to?

      Thank you.

      Thomas Law


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
      > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
      > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
      > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
      > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
      > difference in
      > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
      > accurate ...
      >
      > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
      > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
      (simply)
      > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
      > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
      > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
      > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
      to
      > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
      (suta-
      > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
      > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
      pa.tipadaa),
      > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
      > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
      > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
      hetu".
      > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
      >
      > Mahinda Palihawadana
      >
    • Mahinda Palihawadana
      Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
        Dear Thomas Law,

        I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
        CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
        Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
        volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
        su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
        is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
        down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
        Mahinda P.

        On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

        > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
        >
        > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
        > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
        > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
        > refer to?
        >
        > Thank you.
        >
        > Thomas Law
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
        > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
        > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
        > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
        > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
        > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
        > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
        > > difference in
        > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
        > > accurate ...
        > >
        > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
        > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
        > (simply)
        > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
        > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
        > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
        > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
        > to
        > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
        > (suta-
        > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
        > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
        > pa.tipadaa),
        > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
        > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
        > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
        > hetu".
        > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
        > >
        > > Mahinda Palihawadana
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomaslaw03
        Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
          Dear Pali friends,

          In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
          list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
          angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

          Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
          (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
          abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
          words of the text?

          Thank you.

          Thomas Law
        • Kumaara Bhikkhu
          The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
            The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

            I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

            Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

            kb, who decided to drop by again

            thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
            >Dear Pali friends,
            >
            >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
            >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
            >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
            >
            >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
            >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
            >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
            >words of the text?
            >
            >Thank you.
            >
            >Thomas Law
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
            >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
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            >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            peace2u,
            kb

            New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
            The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
          • thomaslaw03
            Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
              Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

              Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
              only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
              the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
              in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
              four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
              entire set of nine?).

              Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
              have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
              geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
              hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
              Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

              Thank you.

              Regards,

              Thomas Law

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
              >
              > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
              >
              > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
              set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
              an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
              to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
              editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
              that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
              >
              > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
              says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
              for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
              >
              > kb, who decided to drop by again
              >
              > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
              > >Dear Pali friends,
              > >
              > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
              has a
              > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
              (i.e.
              > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
              > >
              > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
              > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
              > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
              the
              > >words of the text?
              > >
              > >Thank you.
              > >
              > >Thomas Law
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >------------------------------------
              > >
              > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
              digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > peace2u,
              > kb
              >
              > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
              > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
              expire some time next year.
              >
            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
                Dear Thomas Law,
                In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                veyyaakara.na.m".

                Mahinda

                On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                >
                > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                > entire set of nine?).
                >
                > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                >
                > Thank you.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Thomas Law
                >
                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                > >
                > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                > >
                > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                > >
                > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                > >
                > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                > > >Dear Pali friends,
                > > >
                > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                > has a
                > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                > (i.e.
                > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                > > >
                > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                > the
                > > >words of the text?
                > > >
                > > >Thank you.
                > > >
                > > >Thomas Law
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > peace2u,
                > > kb
                > >
                > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                > expire some time next year.
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • thomaslaw03
                Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
                  Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                  Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                  edition.

                  A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                  The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                  saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                  sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                  I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                  someone here can help to confirm the words.

                  Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                  Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                  the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                  closely the Sinhala edition?)

                  Thank you.

                  Thomas Law

                  P.S.:

                  PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                  anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                  vol. 111, p. 115)

                  CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                  (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                  "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Thomas Law,
                  > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                  > veyyaakara.na.m".
                  >
                  > Mahinda
                  >
                  > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                  the
                  > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                  > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                  found
                  > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                  the
                  > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                  > > entire set of nine?).
                  > >
                  > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                  > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                  sutta.m
                  > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                  veyyakara.nassa
                  > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                  the
                  > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                  > >
                  > > Thank you.
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Thomas Law
                  > >
                  > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                  Bhikkhu <yg@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                  > > >
                  > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                  > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                  through
                  > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                  even
                  > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                  > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                  say
                  > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                  Karanapali
                  > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                  gone
                  > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                  Huh?
                  > > >
                  > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                  > > >
                  > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                  > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                  > > > >
                  > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                  it
                  > > has a
                  > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                  abbhutadhamma
                  > > (i.e.
                  > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                  > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                  (8)
                  > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                  on
                  > > the
                  > > > >words of the text?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Thank you.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Thomas Law
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                  > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                  > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                  > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                  > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > peace2u,
                  > > > kb
                  > > >
                  > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                  > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                  > > expire some time next year.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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