Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Q. [Pali] Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

Expand Messages
  • Piya Tan
    Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

      I'm aware attachments won't work here.

      Here is a link (hope this is OK):

      http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

      The previous one was broken, sorry.

      Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

      With metta,

      Piya Tan


      On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      > Dear Piya,
      > Thanks for your mail.
      > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
      >
      >
      > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
      > -----
      > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
      > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
      > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
      > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
      > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
      > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
      > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
      > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
      > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
      > anyway for writing,
      > Nina.
      > P.S. Your link did not work.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      Tel: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • thomaslaw03
      Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

        Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
        support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
        you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
        refer to?

        Thank you.

        Thomas Law


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
        > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
        > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
        > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
        > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
        > difference in
        > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
        > accurate ...
        >
        > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
        > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
        (simply)
        > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
        > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
        > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
        > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
        to
        > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
        (suta-
        > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
        > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
        pa.tipadaa),
        > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
        > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
        > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
        hetu".
        > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
        >
        > Mahinda Palihawadana
        >
      • Mahinda Palihawadana
        Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Thomas Law,

          I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
          CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
          Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
          volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
          su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
          is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
          down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
          Mahinda P.

          On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

          > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
          >
          > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
          > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
          > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
          > refer to?
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          > Thomas Law
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
          > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
          > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
          > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
          > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
          > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
          > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
          > > difference in
          > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
          > > accurate ...
          > >
          > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
          > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
          > (simply)
          > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
          > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
          > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
          > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
          > to
          > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
          > (suta-
          > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
          > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
          > pa.tipadaa),
          > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
          > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
          > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
          > hetu".
          > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
          > >
          > > Mahinda Palihawadana
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • thomaslaw03
          Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Pali friends,

            In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
            list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
            angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

            Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
            (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
            abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
            words of the text?

            Thank you.

            Thomas Law
          • Kumaara Bhikkhu
            The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

              I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

              Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

              kb, who decided to drop by again

              thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
              >Dear Pali friends,
              >
              >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
              >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
              >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
              >
              >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
              >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
              >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
              >words of the text?
              >
              >Thank you.
              >
              >Thomas Law
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              peace2u,
              kb

              New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
              The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
            • thomaslaw03
              Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                entire set of nine?).

                Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                Thank you.

                Regards,

                Thomas Law

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                >
                > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                >
                > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                >
                > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                >
                > kb, who decided to drop by again
                >
                > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                > >Dear Pali friends,
                > >
                > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                has a
                > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                (i.e.
                > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                > >
                > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                the
                > >words of the text?
                > >
                > >Thank you.
                > >
                > >Thomas Law
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >------------------------------------
                > >
                > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > peace2u,
                > kb
                >
                > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                expire some time next year.
                >
              • Mahinda Palihawadana
                Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Thomas Law,
                  In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                  veyyaakara.na.m".

                  Mahinda

                  On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                  > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                  >
                  > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                  > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                  > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                  > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                  > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                  > entire set of nine?).
                  >
                  > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                  > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                  > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                  > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                  > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                  >
                  > Thank you.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Thomas Law
                  >
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                  > >
                  > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                  > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                  > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                  > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                  > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                  > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                  > >
                  > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                  > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                  > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                  > >
                  > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                  > >
                  > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                  > > >Dear Pali friends,
                  > > >
                  > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                  > has a
                  > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                  > (i.e.
                  > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                  > > >
                  > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                  > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                  > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                  > the
                  > > >words of the text?
                  > > >
                  > > >Thank you.
                  > > >
                  > > >Thomas Law
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                  > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                  > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                  > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                  > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > peace2u,
                  > > kb
                  > >
                  > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                  > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                  > expire some time next year.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • thomaslaw03
                  Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                    Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                    edition.

                    A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                    The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                    saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                    sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                    I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                    someone here can help to confirm the words.

                    Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                    Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                    the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                    closely the Sinhala edition?)

                    Thank you.

                    Thomas Law

                    P.S.:

                    PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                    anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                    vol. 111, p. 115)

                    CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                    (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                    "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Thomas Law,
                    > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                    > veyyaakara.na.m".
                    >
                    > Mahinda
                    >
                    > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                    > >
                    > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                    the
                    > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                    > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                    found
                    > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                    the
                    > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                    > > entire set of nine?).
                    > >
                    > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                    > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                    sutta.m
                    > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                    veyyakara.nassa
                    > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                    the
                    > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                    > >
                    > > Thank you.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > >
                    > > Thomas Law
                    > >
                    > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                    Bhikkhu <yg@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                    > > >
                    > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                    > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                    through
                    > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                    even
                    > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                    > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                    say
                    > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                    > > >
                    > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                    Karanapali
                    > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                    gone
                    > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                    Huh?
                    > > >
                    > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                    > > >
                    > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                    > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                    > > > >
                    > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                    it
                    > > has a
                    > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                    abbhutadhamma
                    > > (i.e.
                    > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                    > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                    (8)
                    > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                    on
                    > > the
                    > > > >words of the text?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Thank you.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Thomas Law
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                    > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                    > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                    > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                    > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                    > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                    > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > peace2u,
                    > > > kb
                    > > >
                    > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                    > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                    > > expire some time next year.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.