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Re: Q. [Pali] Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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      Dear Piya,
      Thanks for your mail.
      Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

      > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
      -----
      N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
      Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
      welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
      appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
      In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
      around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
      books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
      Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
      anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
      anyway for writing,
      Nina.
      P.S. Your link did not work.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Piya Tan
      Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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        Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

        I'm aware attachments won't work here.

        Here is a link (hope this is OK):

        http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

        The previous one was broken, sorry.

        Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

        With metta,

        Piya Tan


        On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        > Dear Piya,
        > Thanks for your mail.
        > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
        >
        >
        > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
        > -----
        > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
        > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
        > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
        > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
        > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
        > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
        > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
        > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
        > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
        > anyway for writing,
        > Nina.
        > P.S. Your link did not work.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomaslaw03
        Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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          Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

          Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
          support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
          you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
          refer to?

          Thank you.

          Thomas Law


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
          > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
          > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
          > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
          > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
          > difference in
          > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
          > accurate ...
          >
          > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
          > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
          (simply)
          > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
          > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
          > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
          > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
          to
          > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
          (suta-
          > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
          > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
          pa.tipadaa),
          > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
          > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
          > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
          hetu".
          > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
          >
          > Mahinda Palihawadana
          >
        • Mahinda Palihawadana
          Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
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            Dear Thomas Law,

            I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
            CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
            Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
            volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
            su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
            is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
            down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
            Mahinda P.

            On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

            > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
            >
            > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
            > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
            > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
            > refer to?
            >
            > Thank you.
            >
            > Thomas Law
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
            > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
            > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
            > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
            > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
            > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
            > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
            > > difference in
            > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
            > > accurate ...
            > >
            > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
            > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
            > (simply)
            > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
            > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
            > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
            > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
            > to
            > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
            > (suta-
            > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
            > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
            > pa.tipadaa),
            > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
            > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
            > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
            > hetu".
            > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
            > >
            > > Mahinda Palihawadana
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • thomaslaw03
            Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
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              Dear Pali friends,

              In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
              list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
              angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

              Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
              (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
              abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
              words of the text?

              Thank you.

              Thomas Law
            • Kumaara Bhikkhu
              The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                kb, who decided to drop by again

                thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                >Dear Pali friends,
                >
                >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                >
                >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                >words of the text?
                >
                >Thank you.
                >
                >Thomas Law
                >
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
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                >
                >
                >

                peace2u,
                kb

                New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
              • thomaslaw03
                Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                  Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                  Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                  only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                  the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                  in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                  four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                  entire set of nine?).

                  Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                  have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                  geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                  hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                  Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                  Thank you.

                  Regards,

                  Thomas Law

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                  >
                  > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                  set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                  an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                  to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                  editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                  that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                  >
                  > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                  says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                  for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                  >
                  > kb, who decided to drop by again
                  >
                  > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                  > >Dear Pali friends,
                  > >
                  > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                  has a
                  > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                  (i.e.
                  > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                  > >
                  > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                  > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                  > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                  the
                  > >words of the text?
                  > >
                  > >Thank you.
                  > >
                  > >Thomas Law
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                  > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                  > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                  > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                  digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > peace2u,
                  > kb
                  >
                  > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                  > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                  expire some time next year.
                  >
                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                  Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
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                    Dear Thomas Law,
                    In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                    veyyaakara.na.m".

                    Mahinda

                    On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                    > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                    >
                    > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                    > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                    > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                    > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                    > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                    > entire set of nine?).
                    >
                    > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                    > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                    > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                    > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                    > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                    >
                    > Thank you.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Thomas Law
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                    > >
                    > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                    > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                    > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                    > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                    > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                    > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                    > >
                    > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                    > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                    > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                    > >
                    > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                    > >
                    > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                    > > >Dear Pali friends,
                    > > >
                    > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                    > has a
                    > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                    > (i.e.
                    > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                    > > >
                    > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                    > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                    > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                    > the
                    > > >words of the text?
                    > > >
                    > > >Thank you.
                    > > >
                    > > >Thomas Law
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                    > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                    > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                    > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                    > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                    > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                    > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > peace2u,
                    > > kb
                    > >
                    > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                    > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                    > expire some time next year.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thomaslaw03
                    Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
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                      Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                      Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                      edition.

                      A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                      The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                      saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                      sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                      I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                      someone here can help to confirm the words.

                      Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                      Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                      the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                      closely the Sinhala edition?)

                      Thank you.

                      Thomas Law

                      P.S.:

                      PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                      anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                      vol. 111, p. 115)

                      CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                      (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                      "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Thomas Law,
                      > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                      > veyyaakara.na.m".
                      >
                      > Mahinda
                      >
                      > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                      > >
                      > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                      the
                      > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                      > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                      found
                      > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                      the
                      > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                      > > entire set of nine?).
                      > >
                      > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                      > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                      sutta.m
                      > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                      veyyakara.nassa
                      > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                      the
                      > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                      > >
                      > > Thank you.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > >
                      > > Thomas Law
                      > >
                      > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                      Bhikkhu <yg@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                      > > >
                      > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                      > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                      through
                      > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                      even
                      > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                      > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                      say
                      > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                      Karanapali
                      > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                      gone
                      > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                      Huh?
                      > > >
                      > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                      > > >
                      > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                      > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                      > > > >
                      > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                      it
                      > > has a
                      > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                      abbhutadhamma
                      > > (i.e.
                      > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                      > > > >
                      > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                      > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                      (8)
                      > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                      on
                      > > the
                      > > > >words of the text?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >Thank you.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >Thomas Law
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >------------------------------------
                      > > > >
                      > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                      > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                      > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                      > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                      > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                      > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                      > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > peace2u,
                      > > > kb
                      > > >
                      > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                      > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                      > > expire some time next year.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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